Hyper-preterism: No longer regeneration AFTER 70AD

Jerry Bernard "This command in Matthew 28 was to the twelve apostles (ministers to the circumcision) and Amen." This "end of the world" was not the material world. It was the world of the People, Temple and Law. In other words, the Jewish economy or Old Testament economy was to end at some point in time, they were to obey it until they had come "unto the end of the world.and they were to disciple and baptize until then. However, it was to end and a "new heaven and earth" economy would begin. The word, "alway" referred to the then current dispensation that was "to the Jew first," when this apostolic commission (given to the apostles to reach their own) was going on and would end sometime during their generation, as repentance was being preached. However, as was expected, Israel did not repent (Acts 3:19-26; 28:25-28), so all was stopped at the close or the fulfillment of all things, "then shall the end (τελοσ) of the (συντελεια) sunteleia come." This particular commission ended in AD 70, at "the end." So, the apostle to the Gentiles stopped making disciples of the Jews and baptizing them in the (singular) "Name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost" during his ministry."

After 70AD, Jesus is NO LONGER a Heavenly Comforter

Jerry Bernard "After His resurrection, Jesus told His disciples that He would go away for a while and while He was away, He would send a Comforter to be with them in His absence, that is, until He returned. His presence returned in AD 70 and God is "all IN ALL" now. There is no need for a second Comforter after the return or Parousia. God has been here with us and in us ever since A.D. 70. There is no need for Christ to have another Comforter to stay by each suffering Christian while Christ was away. For Christ returned, ending the whole salvation process. and then submitted Himself, His authority and work unto God and now, God is "all in all" and here with us, working in us and through us to do His will. His Parousia or Presence happened, and we are to recognize it and apply that truth to our daily lives today. The Holy Spirit does not replace Christ in His absence now. Nor is Jesus a heavenly Comforter (in the heavens) for anyone today. The Holy Spirit was with men in the first century, inspiring them and the writings of theNew Testament are the result. We need nothing else written down for aid or comfort for us in our sorrows.

jerrybernard.com/lessons/WhatStopped.htm

HyperPreterism: 13 Things That Ended in 70AD

Jerry Bernard "These 13 things did not pass from the first century into our day."
1. The Last Days Came to an End, not to be repeated.
2. Inspired Scripture Came to an End, not to be repeated.
3. The Mosaic Law & Sacrificial System Came to an End, not to be repeated.
4. Power to Heal the Sick Came to an End, not to be repeated.
5. Spiritual Gifts Came to an End, not to be repeated.
6. The Comforter Came to an End, not to be repeated.
7. Death Came to an End, not to be repeated.
8. The Hope of Israel Came to an End, not to be repeated.
9. The Ministry to the Jew First Came to an End, not to be repeated.
10. The Tribulation Came to an End, not to be repeated.
11. The New Covenant & Lord's Supper Came to an End, not to be repeated.
12. The Great Commission & Water Baptism Came to an End, not to be repeated.
13. The Seal of the Holy Spirit Came to an End, not to be repeated.

jerrybernard.com/lessons/WhatStopped.htm

Preterists are really MEEK and HUMBLE BUNCH . . . ROFL

What world is this guy living in? Tell me how meek and humble this group REALLY IS after reading this post. If you still think they are meek and humble after reading this post, then something is wrong with you!

Abba Z Blog Comments: "The deal is that Preterists are a meek and humble bunch that avoid conflict and arguing over words."

http://preteristmuseum.blogspot.com/2008/04/christians-must-renounce-heresy.html?showComment=1209228660000#comment-c5822510531090116908

Mike Sullivan: The Great Reward . . Pella

Mike Sullivan "The "salvation" and "redemption" associated with Christ's second coming in A.D.70 entailed MUCH MORE than a physical flight to the wilderness of Pella, as some commentators have proposed. Christ's Parousia in A.D. 70 was a redemptive and soteriological event that occurred "in" and " within" the minds, consciences and hearts of the church, when God consumed by fire the Adamic world of Satan, Sin, Death and Condemnation, consummately purging His church of sin through the Cross of Christ (Rom. 8:18-23; 11:26-27; 13:11-12; Heb. 8-10). The "redemption" of Luke 21:28 is the "redemption of the body" in Romans 8:18-23. Both the imminence of the time texts and the spiritual nature of their fulfillment require this interpretation."

treeoflifeministries.info/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=50:house-divided- restoring-the-breach-within-reformed-eschatology&catid=35:house-divided-book-promos& Itemid=77

Hyper-Preterists Have Eaten the Apple

Sam Frost: The power of Satan was destroyed. IN 70AD

Sam Frost: Misplace Hope
"But, if “end of the age” and “end of all things” means the end of a covenantal universe ruled by Satan, law, sin, and death, and is pictured in apocalyptic scenes of a universal conflagration, then it becomes evidently possible to construct the where and why the apostolic community in the late first and second centuries misapplied certain passages of Scripture, while on the whole maintaining the elements of biblical eschatology." Page 93

"Once the law was ended however, forever ended in the destruction of the city (the law commanded obedience in for its rites and ceremonies), the power of Satan was destroyed, and he himself, along with the beast and the false prophet were cast into the lake of fire forever. The fall of Jerusalem confirmed the hope that was in them: salvation was opened in Jesus Christ." Page 200-201

HyperPreterism- Hermeneutical Holes Leading to Universalistic Conclusions

Norman Voss: "Their imperfection was not due to a biological descent from Adam but because they "sinned" and could not obtain God through their own perfection either. Rom 5:12 ... and in this way DEATH CAME TO ALL MEN, BECAUSE ALL SINNED."

Davo "WRONG Norm… your CC (Covenant Creation) hermeneutic WILL NOT ALLOW "all men" and "all sinned" to have ANY applicability or relevance BEYOND your "covenant world" –– this is the gaping hole in Tim's, Jeff's and yours CC model.

Norm, it is clear from Jeff's words: "How Adamic death compares to non-life outside the covenant, Scripture doesn't say" that Jeff, and undoubtedly Tim too, believes the Bible for all intents and purposes, speaks ONLY to *the sin of the covenantal people in Adam*. From WHERE then do you Jeff or Tim have ANY BIBLICALLY case for UNIVERSALLY applying *sin* beyond a covenant people –– thus your "DEATH CAME TO ALL MEN, BECAUSE ALL SINNED" does NOT apply to the bulk of humans of history. These are the CLEAR "implications" of your CC hermeneutic.

IF then *SIN* in effect is all and only restricted COVENANTALLY, as Tim, Jeff and Norm's CC contends, then OC Israel must needs be wholly and solely condemned in the FIRST Adam AND thus indeed wholly and solely redeemed in the LAST Adam –– and so Paul was 100% correct when he repeats: "For this is My covenant when I take away their sins" Rom 11:27 –– it can ONLY be OC Israel's *sin*, and so ALL OC Israel was duly and universally "saved" by Christ's new covenant."

So Tim Martin's view is actually SUPPORTING universalism.

blog.planetpreterist.com/index.php?itemid=1801

Duncan McKenzie: Kingdom of God was Established on Earth at His Parousia in AD 70

There are dozens of verses which talk about the revelation of that which had been hidden since creation. All historical manifestations are revelations of the true.. not the true themselves.

Duncan McKenzie "The kingdom of God was fully established in heaven at Jesus’ ascension in AD 30. The kingdom of God was fully established on earth at His Parousia in AD 70. Jesus possessed the kingdom at AD 30. He fully shared the kingdom reign with His people at AD 70.

"This would not be forgiven even in the age to come (i.e. the post-AD 70 kingdom age). "

"The kingdom would be fully established on earth at AD 70 but because it is a spiritual kingdom its coming would not be a visible event."

"The kingdom of God had a two stage establishment. It was fully established in heaven at Jesus’ ascension in AD 30; it was fully established on earth at Jesus’ Parousia in AD 70."

"Since the AD 70 destruction of Jerusalem (the fall of harlot Babylon) those who are believers are rewarded for their works; while those who are non-believers are cast into the lake of fire. Notice, that for those who die after the AD 70 fall of Jerusalem, it is only the ones who die in the Lord that are blessed, not everyone who dies from that time on."

preterism.ning.com/xn/detail/1632544:Topic:2899

"The kingdom was fully established in heaven (with Satan being cast out) at Jesus' ascension (Rev. 12:1-12). It was fully established on earth at the AD 70 destruction of those who were destroying the Land (Rev. 11:15-18)."

planetpreterist.com/news-5477.html#39181

John Hedges: Preterism is really NOT GOING ANYWHERE

Ward Finley Question “Tell me what you think of the direction of this movement, Preterism? Where do you think it is heading right now?”

John Hedges Answer “In my opinion, and I think right now, its just going around in circles. I think a lot of Preterists are still on the time statements, and there still discussing those things years later. It’s really NOT GOING ANYWHERE. And I think that is the MAJOR PROBLEM with Preterism at this moment, the concentration on the time texts, INSTEAD of Jesus himself and not really understanding what we have. . . I think they have forgotten that and are still stuck in the first century.

http://www.sermonplayer.com/c/ncmilive/audio/82183_11709.mp3

What is the Abomination of Desolation?

Many people often wonder what is the Abomination of Desolation. The Bible says in Mark 13:14 “But when you see the abomination of desolation standing where it should not be (let the reader understand) . . . WELL THIS IS IT. You know Christ is not the focus of your ministry or church when a painting like the one seen below is found at the gates of the sanctuary within your church building. Could it be a sign showing that the total glorification is on AD70 has replaced that which belongs to Christ alone. Even worse is the many people who have placed such a image in the gates of their own hearts. A painting that defines their religion (standing where it should not be) instead of a religion defined by Christ.

When you see these things . . . . flee.

Painting is located at the entrance of the auditorium at the Ardmore Church of Christ in Oklahoma.

Todd Dennis: Matthew 26:64 "But I'm telling you, player hater . . . you'll be seeing plenty of me and my posse getting the best of you!"

(Matthew 26:64) Jesus said to him, “You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

TRANSLATION

Todd Dennis "A very loose paraphrase of Jesus' declaration in this light might be : "You said it, bro. But I'm telling you, player hater, that though you think you've got me now, you'll be seeing plenty of me and my posse getting the best of you and your homies from now until your sorry murderous lives end" (cue Jules' pseudo-Ezekiel rant in Pulp Fiction)."

"So, as alluded to in an earlier post, Matthew 26:64 is not a Preterist time indicator in the slightest. The only way that this passage could be seen as pointing to AD70 is by assuming that by saying "the son of man coming" Jesus was referring to AD70. And, of course, this is assuming the very point in question."

Click here for article

Todd Dennis: Smear Campaigns, Integrity Slams, and IP Redirects. THANK YOU!

Todd Dennis: "Frankly, I would be able to tolerate Hyper Preterism a whole lot more if its "teachers" were able to admit when they were wrong... Sadly, however, this hasn't been the case. In fact, I have been the target of a number of smear campaigns, integrity slams, and IP redirects to leftbehind.com (heheh). However, don't mistake this for a pity-party. All of the abuse I have received from full preterists was very instrumental in my being able to break free !"

Click Here to View Article

Universalism is becoming more and more accepted in Preterist circles

Duncan "I am concerned that preterist universalism (which goes by a number of different labels) is becoming more and more accepted in preterist circles as a legitimate form of preterism."

preterism.ning.com/xn/detail/1632544:Topic:2899

Fred Robbins: Preterists are Short Sighted, Fractured, Divided, Backbiters, Arrogant, and Dogmatic

Fred Robbins "I believe the supporters of preterism have been short sited and overly optimistic in their evaluation of what they call a movement or new reformation. It seems today that any group that is promoting some unorthodox or non-traditional doctrine sees themselves as some new movement bringing new light to the Christian community. These groups are optimistic of spreading their newfound doctrine, which is not new, for others to follow."

"Most of us know all of the different groups within “Preterism”. The fracture continues to grow monthly. The battles within the Preterist community are no longer with those that oppose it but among themselves. They bite and devour one another and eventually they will be consumed. There will be no agreement and unity among Preterists anymore than other groups. All of the different theological backgrounds can use a preterist hermeneutic but that does not make them united."

"Some have declared that Preterism will be the uniting factor to bring the body of believers together. This too is a mistake caused by not understanding Preterism. It is seen by many as another view of eschatology but upon close inspection, that too is suspect."

"If Preterism does not wake up it will only show the Christian community how cruel and mean dogmatism can be. This arrogance did not start with Preterism but has been fueled by the proponents over their long held theological positions." "This is what the so-called Preterists need to go back and learn."

togodtheglory.blogspot.com/2007/03/preterism.html

Kurt Simmons "The Inherently Universalistic Preterism"

Max King – Presence Ministries – Planet Preterist

Web of Influence

If the reader will take the time to read the quotes and notice the progression of thought, he will see that "Covenant Eschatology" and the "Corporate Body" view of the resurrection are inherently Universalistic. The idea of a "covenantal" eschaton must go the way of all flesh!

Individuals quoted are either Universalists or are advocating views derived in some form or manner from Max King

Click to See Chart

http://preteristcentral.com/pmax-king-page.htm

Jim Wade: Set Free By Preterism?

What a sad post. Preterism is to thank for being set free, not Jesus, not the Spirit, but preterism. Rationally think? He better get used to working for himself, because this is just the beginning. "Preterism is a road sign, not a destination."

Jim Wade "Thousands of articles, debates, pages of dialogue, and one year later, it snapped. "oh, so that's what enlightenment feels like. It changed my outlook on life, the scriptures, and the study of philosophy and religion in general. It made me work for what I knew, made me think for myself for the first time. The night my friends first mentioned preterism, they began freeing me from a damned existance as an ignorant sheep at the will of sheep in shepards clothing. It isn't especially preterism that is to thank for the benefits I've reaped. But from the beginning to the point I accepted it, I learned to think rationally for myself. It is a gift for which I am eternally grateful.

forum.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=messageboard.viewThread&entryID=20211732 &categoryID=0&IsSticky=0&groupID=101709430&Mytoken=EC973D58-35F2-4AE9-B294 FA2C94BFEB3653095006

Jim Ware "You've taken the first step out of eschatological darkness and are moving toward the light of the Daystar of Zion" LOL Total Delusion.

The Former Full Preterist Blogosphere is Growing. Come Join Us!!!!

Todd Dennis: The Two Ingredients of an Effective Refutation of Hyper Preterism

"The primary focus of this blog is opposing inferior doctrines of Hyper Preterism which focus on AD70. It is the working assumption that, and the purpose of this post to explain why, the most effective way to accomplish this task is by advocating superior doctrines which focus on Jesus Christ."

This blog's opposition to the historical focus of Futurism does not equal advocacy of the historical focus of Preterism. Conversely (listen up!), this blog's opposition to the historical focus of Preterism does not equal advocacy of the historical focus of Futurism !

"Building upon previous successful opposition to Hyper Preterism on the first part (though sometimes written by people with whom I do not doctrinally agree), this blog intends to offer...

A) Sound arguments opposing, in the first part, the chronological Hyper Preterist narrative which is focused on events long past

while providing

B) Sound arguments advocating, in the second part, an ultimately achronological Idealist narrative which is focused on the illimitable person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ

...thereby accomplishing the goal of presenting materials for effective refutation of "Total Fulfillment in AD70" doctrines (and a fair amount of "Partial Fulfillment in AD70" doctrines, too!)."

http://www.hyperpreteristarchive.com/blog1.php/2008/04/18/refuation-model

Hyper-Preterist Archive Announced

Todd Dennis "Specifically, HYPERpreteristarchive.com will be focusing on the extreme end of that range, which is represented by the "Total Fulfillment Model" (TFM). This view teaches that bible prophecy was totally fulfilled by AD70, when the Romans sacked Jerusalem, bringing the Mosaic religious era to a close. This extreme preterism is being categorized as "hyper" -- as in beyond the biblically acceptable -- due to its fundamental overthrow of the Christianity displayed in the New Testament (teaching instead that the world entered a new age/dispensation when the temple fell in the year 70 of the first century).

In short, a few hallmarks of Hyper Preterism are those systems which teach:
- A global, historical "Consummation of the Ages" in AD70.
- The global, historical eradication of sin/"the sin" in AD70.
- The global, historical destruction of "the Adversary" in AD70.
- The global, historical destruction of "the last enemy, which is death" in AD70.

There are many other points which will be addressed, but that list gives an idea of what will be this blog's focus. "

Tim King "The whole of creation in Adam found its release" FROM SIN

Tim King "Our goal in putting forward a doctrine of Comprehensive Grace is neither to lend credence to the limited salvation of humanity as held by many fundamentalists, nor to open the door to the religious relativism held by those teaching universal salvation. Instead, we seek to re-frame the entire issue of salvation by placing it back into its first century, covenantal setting."

"The overarching focus of the teaching of Comprehensive Grace is to recover the setting of Paul's ministry and what he saw that caused him to become overjoyed at the understanding that God had indeed "imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all" (Romans 11:32, my emphasis). Correctly seen by Paul, this triumph of God was carried out and accomplished through Christ and his collective body"

"Our goal, formidable enough in itself, is to understand the first-century context of the reign and ministry of Christ and the saints in bringing about a new world of righteousness and life."

"The day Jerusalem and its law system fell was the day that the great accuser of the brethren fell."

"Unlike Eden, no longer could a tempter use the law as leverage against a stubborn, blinded and weak humanity. In the end, the original intent of God for his creation was restored. Through the inclusive mission of Christ and his firstfruits body (the church), the work of God was complete and the whole of creation in Adam (Romans 8) found its release in being revealed as the sons of God."

http://web.archive.org/web/20030620165158/www.presence.tv/cms/compgrace.shtml

Richard McPherson: Satan NO LONGER EXISTS

Richard K. McPherson "Many articles prove the significance of Jesus’ return in 70 AD. It has been proven repeatedly that the prophecies of the prophets and of Jesus came true. It has also been proven that the disciples taught only what they had been taught and left nothing out. In this paper, I am trying to point out other things that also happened in 70 AD. There are a lot more things that happened then that affect us today. One of these things is the existence of the devil or Satan. Trying to point out something that people want to hold on to is going to be hard. In this article, I will pose some questions to people who hold on the existence of Satan and say that he still has power and in doing so; believe the opposite of what the Scriptures teach."

"In 1 Cor. 15:24, it tells us that the end will come after everything has been destroyed and death was that last thing. The word “destroy” has the same meaning as in Hebrews 2:14 and Romans 16:20. When did this happen? 70 ad!! If this happen in 70 ad, then how can the Devil (Satan) be here today? How did he survive that destruction? Both in 1 Corinthians 15:26 and Hebrews 2:14, death, Satan or the Devil go hand in hand. I ask again. Did Jesus destroy death or not?"

"Did the Second Coming affect everyone, both the save and unsaved? Did the Kingdom only come for a certain group of people or everyone? Was the judgment for everyone? Did the passing of the law and the destruction of death affect everyone? If we are living in the results of promises made to the fist century Christians, then the law, sin, death, Satan (the devil) no longer exists."

preterism-eschatology.com/Does%20SATAN%20Exist%20Today.htm

Richard McPherson: Lord's Supper and Baptism IS NOT necessary today

Richard McPherson "When was until that day? 70 AD Who was Jesus taking to in this text? His disciples When did the Father's kingdom come? 70 AD (1 Corinthians 15:24) When did the new covenant come? 70 AD If the blood is the Covenant or in the other gospels, the New Covenant and the first century Christians were looking forward for that New Covenant, then yes the meaning of the supper would make sense. If Christ has not come then we will still are living under the Old Covenant and still looking forward for a New Covenant. (Hebrews 8:13, 10:8-9) The supper would still be just like the first century Christians. The forgiveness of sin did not happen until Jesus return. (Hebrews 9:23-28, Luke 21:28, Revelation 10:7) We are under the New Covenant, today. Everything has been fulfilled. I myself believe that the so call Lord's Supper is not necessary today. I have seen that even in the Preterist camp there are some who down right refuse to be consistent with scripture. At the same time, I am not saying that the people who still partake the Lord's Supper are wrong. It is because of our freedom in Christ we can disagree on this topic. This comment could be said about baptism also. (I also believe that baptism in not necessary after 70 AD. That article is on the way.) This article is just food for thought. I believe that a person can go too far with Preterism and I do not believe I have. Some believe that it is ok to have more that one wife after 70AD in which I disagree with. I try to hold God in the Highest Honor and His word is

truth.http://web.archive.org/web/20030520024253/planetpreterist.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=167

Jack Scott: The Reluctance to Call Sin Sin

Sin destroyed in AD70; sin was NOT! Nor will it ever according to FP Jack Scott. So sin wasn't destroyed in AD70. Either it is or it isn't. None of this "the sin" was, but sin wasn't.

Jack Scott "The realization of all New Cov. redemptive hopes are when His enemies are defeated. The last enemy is death, therefore the New Cov. redemptive hopes will only be realized and empowered when death is overcome in life, i.e., RESURRECTION! This point cannot be missed, Paul's resurrection, whatever and whenever it is, is the overthrow of death - the last enemy, which is when the blessings of the New Cov. are realized."

If resurrection is something only realized at physical death or some other future time as advocated by many preterists, then that is "when" in their scheme "death" is finally overcome. The concomitant disastrous implication is that this is when, and only when, the New Cov. is realized (MEANING 70AD). Such has led some at least, like those mentioned earlier to suggest, consistently, that we do not yet have life only the hope of it.

Excuse me, but I can only reject such a view as strongly as I know how. I don't reject the men who mistakenly hold to it - I love them, but the implications of their doctrine are contradictory to every tenant of fulfilled redemption."

planetpreterist.com/news-5211.html

Jack misses the idea of the down payment of the inheritance until the redemption. Full Preterists are in trouble with this one. It locks them in only on a ad70 resurrection.

Comments from JohnM . . .

My cursory recovery of your comments is that you appear to be laboring extensively to avoid saying something like "Sin dwelleth in me" because, you think, it appears that this would somehow be an admission that Christ's victory is not yet complete. This springs of course from the principle that you do not want to ever deny the fullness of Christ's victory.

1) Should a covenantal Christian (while living in a body of flesh in the year 2007) be encouraged to overcome sin and temptation?
2) Is there indwelling sin in the flesh of a covenantal Christian? (If, perhaps, one says that sin still dwells in the flesh then how are we to understand the reach of Christ's fulfilled victory over sin and death? If, perhaps, one says that there is now no indwelling sin in the flesh, then are covenantal Christians supposed to view sin as a "mirage" empty of all reality?)
I say that sin does, yes, dwell in the flesh. Even after the Parousia. And I conclude that this sin does not spring from the "law of Moses". And I submit that all of this is not in the least bit inconsistent with Christ's victory over Sin and Death.

This is a huge point. How can you say that there is sin if the last enemy has been destroyed? In other words, Full Pret is not just universalistic through the removal of sin. Oh, but wait. . . it wasn't SIN that was destroyed . . it was "THE" sin!

Jack Scott's Response. . .
"Thanks for taking the time to enlarge you comments. I think my understanding of what you said will be prove to be a fast-track course on your covenant perspective. My cursory recovery of your comments is that you appear to be laboring extensively to avoid saying something like "Sin dwelleth in me" because, you think, it appears that this would somehow be an admission that Christ's victory. " I do not believe the idea of being freed from this biological body (physical death and entrance into "heaven") insures us of living a sinless existence. "

Jack "I believe that the Bible distinguishes between "sin" and "the sin". These human frailty issues, which the Bible assures us we will never fully overcome." "I am convinced that our translators did not serve us well here in removing Paul's intentional use of the definite article." "
" I do not believe that a "covenantal Christian in the year 2007" can live in a "body of flesh."

NONSENSE! This ties into how the Christianity of the New Testament ceased in AD70 because Paul asked to be delivered from it. . EVEN AFTER saying in Romans 7 that he had already been delivered from the law! This FP fantasy is based upon a complete misrepresentation of the appearance of the definite article in Greek. Just because in some places it says "Jesus" and in others it says "the Jesus" doesn't mean there are TWO of them.

There are many other places in the near vicinity of these verses where the definite article is used for more mundane things, and which is not included in English because it is clunky -- not because the translators were Futurists or wrong, or whatever other conspiratorial reason one can think of why the English doesn't say what they want it to say -- all to support a huge overthrow of accepted Christianity.
For some reason, people such as Jack or Sam just don't seem to get how big their changes to Christianity are! They don't hold back for a second.. but rush on, and change accepted and biblical Christianity with nary a thought Just dismissively waving their hands "oh, that was fulfilled in ad70" or saying "as Preterists we understand that.." (the Bible shouldn't be read as written, but must be filtered through the "AD70 lens").. focusing on "the sin" when they should be focusing on SIN. The fact is, if it is about TODAY they are uninterested. They LOVE yesterday.

This is sick sick stuff. I mean like satanic sick. Full Preterism is a host of the devil to fight Christianity and Christ. Hence all the evil that swirls around it. The rebellion, the bitterness, all the fruits of the flesh which we are shown by Paul in warning against this very thing. The people are innocent victims of it... but in reality
are to blame for not testing spirits better.

Brian Simmons: Hyper-Preterism is a Cessationist Theology

Brian Simmons "The Preterists take the elements of "past fulfillment" and melt them down into a system which usually results in a cessationist theology. Cessationism is a kind of faith that uses rationalistic methods to sift through God's word, that it may construct a new revelation for today's church. The underlying belief is that the New Testament had a primary application to the church of the First Century; and so we must figure out what "applied" to them, and what "applies" to us.

Such a view obviously fails to see the New Testament as a single revelation made to God's church for all ages. And naturally, special hermeneutics must be first devised before Preterists can succeed in "proving" that their views are valid. But because the majority of Christians do not accept their methods, they must go to war. They realize that in order to win they must destroy the methods of their adversaries. Thus they become predators and corsairs who sail upon the high seas of religion, shooting their cannons of doubt at any ship that looks like an easy target."

Click here to read the rest of this article.

As far as what happens after 70 AD, I really don't know.

Some how I find this post INSANELY FUNNY.

"For all intents and purposes, I am a full preterist. Let me tell you what I, as a full preterist, believe -- all prophecy in the book of Revelation has been fulfilled. The New Jerusalem is available to us believers now. The results of the kingdom of God, here on earth, are still coming to fruition. In other words, the prophecies related to end times are finished, but the results of it are still unfolding.

As far as what happens after 70 AD, again, I really don't know. I don't believe the bible looks beyond 70 AD as far as prophecy goes, because it's all been fulfilled. What happens next is beyond me. My list of prophecies is in another thread. Feel free to call me full preterist."

thechristadelphians.org/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t663.html

http://preteristheresy.blogspot.com/2008/04/as-far-as-what-happens-after-70-ad.html

Todd Dennis: Matthew 16:27-28 Preterist Time Text or NOT

Todd Dennis "If AD70 figures into the imagery of Matthew 16:27-28 at all (even though it is not mentioned, or even so much as hinted at in the text), it would be as a visible, external show of these very personal revelations (per Israel’s entire role as visible schoolmaster of invisible things). This is also likely considering both Jesus and Paul's correlation of the fall of the temple with the death of the body (John 2:19 ; 1 Cor. 3:17)

At any rate, there is no question that we have vastly underestimated the significance of persecution and martyrdom in its coloration of New Testament eschatology.

If nothing else, the complete lack of AD70 reference might be enough to bring dogmatic Hyper Preterists to a bit of a pause.. because if it has been assumed that Matthew 16:27-28 is about AD70, then what else might have been assumed?

Fact is, the only reason we believe a lot of what we believe is that we haven't come up with anything better yet. Sadly, our prejudices really work against us getting the true picture of the Word if we are unwilling to allow the Holy Spirit to move us in particular directions."

Click Here for the full article.

Death, Satan, the Sin and the Law ENDED in 70AD

"Satan was appointed by God to carry out the judicial sentence against all men, including the righteous. All who were truly “of Israel” by faith in God were equally condemned “in Adam” and under the curse of “the Death and the Sin.” Because of the reconciling work of the Incarnate One, these, along with “whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord” were and are given acces eternally to the Tree of Life, which Adam and all men were originally cut off from. In order to be given access, “the death, satan, the sin and the law” had to be vanquished. Their time was served, and their defeat was sure. “satan” is no longer necessary in the affiars of God, and thus his appointment was ended with the parousia, the consummation of all things in the generation His Son descended upon. "

en.preterism.com/index.php?title=Frequently_Asked_Questions

Hyper-Preterism: Comparing Two Views on Satan and the Lake of Fire

The two quotes below are from two Preterist leaders. However, I can't see how the first quote would be classified as a Full/Hyper Preterist view. It places NOTHING in 70AD. Notice the second view by Don Preston and how extreme and narrow minded he seems. He places everything in 70AD including the "fall of Satan" and "his demise" and his "being cast into the lake of fire". I wonder how Don Preston could make such a statement and how people (brainwashed as they may be) continue to HELL HIM.

Ward Finley "You see, I believe that death being swallowed up, and Satan being thrown into the lake of fire was a promise for the believer. There is still sea for the one who doesn't believe in Jesus. There is still division between nationalities etc. But in Christ those things are done away. So I should qualify that "in Christ" those things are done away."

groups.yahoo.com/group/newcreationministries/message/2427

Don Preston
"Finally, Revelation posits the final downfall of Satan as "at hand." The entirety of the book, not just parts of it, were said to be "at hand" (1:1-3; 22:6f). In chapter 12, John saw Satan fall from heaven; he also noted that Satan had only "a short time" (12:12), in which to accomplish his devilish designs. His demise was at hand! In chapter 20, we see him finally defeated and cast into the fiery lake. (WARNING HYPER PRETERIST TRICKERY, AT HAND !!!!) The honest student simply must find some way to correlate these passages which predicted Satan's final defeat with the emphatic time parameters placed there by inspiration. To deny the CHRONOLOGY of the predictions is nothing less than a denial of the inspiration of the predictions."

eschatology.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=29&Itemid=61

http://preteristheresy.blogspot.com/2008/04/hyper-preterism-comparing-two-views-on.html

Hyper-Preterism: No Sin, No Death, No Law AFTER 70AD

Davo: You say you're looking for prêteristic consistency, well let's look at this: IF the death [separation] you reference be "the death" that came to ALL men [Rom 3:23] through the first Adam [1Cor 15:22a] and THAT death [separation] was "the death" that WAS destroyed through Israel's AD70 lake of fire; along with its powerful appendages of the sin and the law and the devil [1Cor 5:56; Rev 20:10]; THEN "the death" [separation] that Adam's sin passed onto ALL men IS GONE, i.e., through the sacrifice of the last Adam [1Cor 15:22b] Israel's redemption has been realised and reconciliation established for ALL [Heb 9:26]. IOW – If death still has its sting [sin], then we MUST conclude that sin still has its strength [the law], which means that Christ is yet to be "the end of the law" IF indeed the last enemy [death/separation] to be destroyed HAS NOT YET HAPPENED [???] – thus leaving us STILL under sin, death, law and Satan.

planetpreterist.com/news-5389.html#36837

The covenant is written WITHIN the heart and not tied to a historical line

This is the problem the Preterism faces when they define the covenant beginning or ending as a historical line. This is an example of how Preterism seems to focus only on the outward aspects (70ad) of the covenantal line while making secondary the internal aspects (of the heart) to those in Christ. They maintain if Christ has not returned, or the kingdom is not yet established than the new covenant is not yet established. The covenant is written WITHIN the heart and not tied to a historical line. It was not established, but merely is. It is eternal.

Stupid Arguments: WITHOUT 70AD, NO NEW COVENANT

Sjolander Road Fellowship "Ironically, many Jews are still waiting for their Messiah to come and establish His kingdom. In the meantime they continue to practice certain religious requirements in order to maintain their identity as God's chosen people. In like manner, many Christians are waiting for their Messiah/Savior to come again to establish His kingdom. While waiting, these believers rely on right doctrine, rituals, and message to maintain their identity as God's new chosen people. Both groups are alike in their waiting, their hoping, and the incompleteness of their Messiah's work. So what's really new?

For the institutional church, it is as if the New Covenant does not exist, because essentially nothing has changed in mankind's spiritual status since Christ. If human knowledge and effort ultimately determines one's standing before God and if God still recognizes and exclusively blesses an arbitrarily chosen few, then the accomplishment of Christ is completely trivialized. The very institution which claims to promote and honor Christ is actually denying His transcendent message about God's marvelous Love and Mercy for all."

knowingtodaysgod.com/articles/What%20is%20Really%20Different.htm

http://preteristheresy.blogspot.com/2008/04/stupid-arguments-without-70ad-no-new.html

Hyper-Preterism: The Corporate and Universal New Covenant

Sjolander Road Fellowship "Finally all God's redemptive plan culminated in the New Covenant of Christ. For some reason, this covenant is taught as being individual and voluntary instead of corporate and involuntary as all the previous covenants had been. In no case prior to Christ had any covenant with God been inaugurated on a purely individual or voluntary basis. In particular Israelites were such by birth and not by conscious decision on their part. When God visited blessings or curses on the Israelites all rejoiced or suffered collectively. The people of Israel might fall away in sinfulness over and over again, but never did God forget His promises or divert from the purpose for which He had made the covenant promise. Every covenant of God was a step in the overall plan to redeem mankind, and no actions or shortcomings of mankind were allowed to circumvent God's purpose.

In light of the nature of all the preceding covenants, it seems particularly strange that the covenant in Christ would suddenly become individual and not corporate and universal. It also is not consistent that participation in the new covenant would require one's assent. All the examples of God's covenants prior to Christ would indicate that the traditional picture of how one gains the benefits of God's New Covenant is incorrect.

Recognizing the covenantal nature of God's redemptive process establishes the fact that Christ's completed work is truly universal in outreach. There is no room in this covenant relationship with God for any kind of haphazard, individualistic application. It is just not the way God operates, as demonstrated by all these previous examples."

knowingtodaysgod.com/articles/The%20Corporate%20Nature.htm

http://preteristheresy.blogspot.com/2008/04/hyper-preterism-corporate-and-universal.html

Jerry Bowers: Delusions of Preterism . . . PERFECTION COMES by Understanding Timing

COME ON! Understanding "timing" aspects have nothing to do with making one more loving, more joyful, more peaceful, or more righteous. Nor does it bring the kingdom or the holy spirit any more closer to individuals. If anything has not been demonstrated throughout preterism, it would be opposite from the picture Bower paints. His ministry surely sums up preterism. "GAP" Evangelizing!!! A gap from what Christianty really is!

Jerry Bowers "Our Ministry does not focus on the differences within the Preterist View of Eschatology but instead focuses on the Time Statements & Audience Relevance to show when the Kingdom was to come and How.

We believe acceptance of the timing aspects of the “Time of the End” statements is where the truest understanding lies and it is within this acceptance that the Love, Joy, Peace & Righteousness in the Holy Spirit is released into our lives and will simply allow us to see the future, clearer. "

Hyper-Preterism: What "ALL THINGS HAVE BECOME NEW" Really Means

Ed Burley: ". . . but it is important to understand the reason that there were two kingdoms. But, we know from Revelation that "the kingdoms OF THIS WORLD (kosmos/covenant/order) HAVE NOW become the KINGDOM (singular) of our Lord and of His Christ." The work was completed, accomplished. God had "reconciled THE WORLD (kosmos/covenant/order) to Himself" through Jesus Christ, the one whom He sent. There is no more Jew, or Gentile (northern tribe), for in Christ, they have been made one. All the old things have passed away, behold, ALL THINGS have become new."

planetpreterist.com/news-5460.html#38816

http://preteristheresy.blogspot.com/2008/04/hyper-preterism-what-all-things-have.html

The redeeming work of Christ was INCOMPLETE prior to 70AD

Greg Simon: "The gifts were a manifestation of the Holy Spirit, and a sign that the Spirit had been poured out in the last days. However, the giving of the Holy Spirit, as powerful and as spectacular as that might have been, was only (a) a substitute for Jesus, and (b) a downpayment (pledge), sealing the redemption brought about by Jesus and redeemable upon His return.
Even while the Spirit was active, the redeeming work of Christ WAS INCOMPLETE (PARTIAL). The inheritance was sealed, but not yet attained.

John McPherson: The Cross and his Resurrection ARE NOT Personally and Directly Applicable to us TODAY

John McPherson "The death of Christ on the cross and his resurrection ARE NOT NECESSARILY PERSONALLY AND DIRECTLY APPLICABLE TO US as post-70 AD saints - not in the way we have been led to believe. Rather, they form part of the foundation of our current spiritual economy and the eternal Kingdom of Heaven. The ministry accomplished by Christ in His earthly life, death and resurrection enabled the establishment of the Kingdom of which we may become citizens by faith in Him. Christ's accomplished work also brought about the final judgment - and eternal annihilation - of the Old Covenant "world" and the spiritual system forming its structure and foundation. Thus, while Christ's death and resurrection are not without tremendous significance to Kingdom citizenry, THEY DO NOT HAVE THE SAME APPLICATION TO US as they did to the First Century saints and the "world" of Spiritual Israel which He died to redeem from within Old Covenant physical Israel."

planetpreterist.com/news-5456.html#38794

http://preteristheresy.blogspot.com/2008/04/cross-and-his-resurrection-are-not.html

Brian Simmons- Hyper Preterism Denies the Holy Spirit

When combating this heresy, it should be noted that Hyper-Preterism leads to denial of the Holy Spirit. For not only do Hyper-Preterists teach, that for 1,900 years the Spirit failed to guide God's people into a right comprehension of the truth, but even the logical conclusions of their system nullify the ministry of the Spirit. For instance:

"Behold, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the age" (Matt. 28: 20).

"Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of His glory" (Ephesians 1: 14).

"And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for the age" (John 14: 16).

"I am the Living Bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for the age" (John 6: 51).

"This is the bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for the age" (John 6: 58).

It is interesting to note that the manna was only given to the Israelites during their forty years' wandering in the wilderness. It ceased once they entered Canaan. Those who make "this age" signify the "Mosaic Age" force the antitype to conform within the bounds of A.D. 30-70. This makes the ministry of the Spirit end in A.D. 70. Remember, timing is everything!
What a base and groveling system this is! It all but blasphemes the ministry and power of the Holy Ghost.

Moreover, it makes spiritual worship cease in A.D. 70. St. Basil of Caesarea writes: "Such an one hath neither part nor lot in the true worship; for it is impossible to worship the Son, save by the Holy Ghost; impossible to call upon the Father, save by the Spirit of adoption." (De Spiritu Sancto, xxvii).

The fact is, Preterism is a Satanic delusion which leads logically to denial of the ministry of the Holy Spirit. Don't believe me? Then go to the blogs and websites of the chief heresiarchs of Preterism, and begin checking their writings very closely. You will find that hardly anything at all is mentioned concerning the Holy Spirit's ministry.

It is blasphemous enough to think that God didn't have enough power to bring about His will in leading His church into the truth. It is even worse, however, when one denies the work of the Spirit within his own heart.

Wake up, Preterists!

http://bsimmons74.blogspot.com/2008/02/brian-simmons-hyper-preterism-denies.html

The Hyper-Preterist Players

Every movement has different characters playing different parts & the same is true within the hyper-preterist movement. We would like to introduce the readers to some of the more vocal players within hyper-preterism.

Esteemed Founder: Max King
Max King, a “church of Christ” minister who is credited with founding the modern movement known by various names, “Covenant Eschatology”, “Fulfilled Eschatology”, “Consistent Preterism”, “Full Preterism” – or properly called “Hyper-preterism”. Max King wrote several books that are considered foundational to the preterism movement. Max King is now well into his grandfatherly seventies & rarely communicates with his ideological offspring.

Rejected Heir: Tim King
Tim King, son of Max King appeared to be primed to take over the reigns of the movement but due to indiscretions & his extremely liberal theology, Tim King could not maintain the image & instead tried to reposition himself & the movement under a new banner called “Transmillennialism™” (which he had the nerve to trademark). This endeavor failed to have a huge following thus the “Transmillennialism™” faction of hyper-preterism mainly acts as a liberal philanthropic organization & an outlet for selling Tim King’s liberal, pop-psychology “teaching” materials.

Traveling Salesman: Don Preston
Don Preston, also a “church of Christ” minister travels around debating mainly other “church of Christ” ministers. Ironically enough it is easy pickings because the “futurist” church of Christ adherents’ “restorationist” views where they believe the true Church & Gospel was lost & thus had to be “restored” is the very thing that handicaps them to effectively refute the errors of hyper-preterism. Don Preston thus appears to pummel his futurist colleagues & the dispensationalists that he often engages in debates. In fact, it is no coincidence that as the readers can see, hyper-preterism is dominant within the “church of Christ” denomination – it’s anti-continuity concepts of historical Christianity lends itself for them to fall into these kinds of heresies.

Presumed Scholar: Sam Frost
Sam Frost, an admitted “ecumenicist” has for a long time been the presumed “scholar” of the hyper-preterists since he is one of the few, if not the only with any sort of theological degree. He also has been seen as the token “Calvinist” among the hyper-preterists. Although there are other Calvinistic hyper-preterists, they typically use the moniker of “sov grace” which is a vague version of the classic Reformed position. Sam Frost & the minority semi-conservatives are increasingly finding themselves pushed out of the wider hyper-preterist culture.

Proud Prince: Virgil Vaduva
Virgil Vaduva, another “church of Christ” member has positioned himself as the prince of preterism – with the leading hyper-preterist website & the most active gathering points for hyper-preterism. Virgil Vaduva is the main promoter of hyper-preterist materials. At one point in time, he even attempted to trademark the term “preterist”. Virgil Vaduva is a Romanian immigrant that married the daughter of one of Max King’s close associates, Terry Hall. Although Virgil Vaduva is not always well known by new adherents of hyper-preterism, he is actually the man behind the curtain & the main pusher of the universalistic & postmodernisitic flavor of hyper-preterism. If it weren’t for Virgil Vaduva, much of the organization of the movement would collapse.

Protagonist/Antagonist: Ed Stevens
Ed Stevens, a former “church of Christ” member is known to some as the antagonist within hyper-preterism since it was Ed Stevens that was mainly responsible for driving Tim King into the background & blamed for derailing initial discussions of Max King with mainstream theologians. Ed Stevens early on saw himself as the protagonist of hyper-preterism but much of his support abandoned him when he began espousing a first-century rapture. Recently, it seems Ed Stevens is trying to work his way back into the center of the movement & he has even engendered kind words from his long time rival, Virgil Vaduva.
Wannabe Hyper-Preterist Players
Of course, no movement is complete without a whole host of supporting players of which hyper-preterism has many. The Soap-Opraesque environment of the Hyper-preterist movement alone makes it an almost addicting thing to observe even if you never buy any of their novel & anti-historical, anti-Christian wild speculations.

http://preteristheresy.blogspot.com/2008/04/hyper-preterist-players.html

Kurt Simmons: The Universalism of the Covenantal Heavens and Earth

Kurt Simmons: It is no secret that Presence Ministries of Max R. King, who has built his built his writing career on the covenantal heavens and earth model, has gone over to Universalism. The number of articles and quotes that may be marshaled in support of this charge make it beyond successful refutation. Indeed, Presence Ministries feels no need to even deny the accusation by issuing a statement or disclaimer. We here provide quotes from Universalists of varying shades and colors, all of whom make happy use of the covenantal heavens and earth concept to advance their cause. The last quote is by Tim Martin; although not a Universalist, his theology nevertheless bears an obvious logical connection thereto. All the people quoted accept the basic covenantal heavens and earth model of King. Please note the progression of thought:

Tim King - “Simply stated, man is changed because his world changed. Man is reconciled to God because he no longer lives under the rule of sin and death as determined by the Mosaic world. Through the gift of Christ he dwells in a world of righteousness and life. The issue is cosmic and corporate, not individual and limited.” Tim King, Comprehensive Grace, 2005

Kevin Beck - “There’s no sin and no sin-related death in a world that has the New Jerusalem in it’s midst.” Kevin Beck, The Creation of Jerusalem, Feb, 08

David Timm - The second Adam (Christ) reversed all the spiritual separation brought by the first Adam, not just part of it…in the new world people are reconciled to God without any say in the matter. God loves all those that He has made in His image equally. David Timm, Grace Upon All, Oct. 2006

David Embury- "A man was who he was according to his 'world', and for the Jews their world centred around Yahweh - they were His people and He their God, and so by covenant. Who were the first-fruit believers in Paul's eyes? None other than the 'Body of Christ'. Having been crucified, buried and raised in Christ they were thus delivered out of the body of sin and death i.e., the Old Covenant world, or what we might call the 'Body of Moses' – Paul having spoken of "the fathers" being "baptized into Moses" etc. [can you see the train of thought?] The designation "the flesh" is not one facet of man as opposed to another part of man i.e., "the spirit", but rather "the flesh" speaks of man as a whole in a given mode or realm of existence, as does likewise the spirit. So Paul's spirit/flesh language was indicative of life under covenant, either of the "flesh" as in OC or of the "spirit" as in NC – reading Gal 3 and Phil 3 bears this out." David Embury, Plantet Preterist post, Friday, December 05 @ 20:23:16 PST

Ed Burely – “In spite of the fact that I do not believe that the first chapters of Genesis have anything to do with the physical creation (but instead with a covenant creation), I still will not buy an argument that says "young earth" but not with biblical evidence. A covenantal view of the bible's beginning, along with scientific data, speaks to me that this earth, and this universe is old." Ed Burely, Planet Preterist, Tuesday, November 13 @ 10:56:06 PST

Tim Martin - "Just as the formation of Israel and giving of the Law was the metaphorical creation of “heaven and earth,” so the destruction of the Judaic society, the Law, the priesthood, and temple would be the passing away of Israel’s “heaven and earth.” Tim Martin, Beyond Creation Science (unpublished manuscript version)

“Do you believe that there were any people outside of the garden at creation? If all were in the garden in God's first (what you take to be physical) creation, wouldn't that have implications for God's redemption?...As you can see, it could be that it's never been about us doing anything (right or wrong); it's always been about God redeeming his creation; not just small parts of it.” Tim Martin, Planet Preterist Post, Thursday, February 21 @ 09:48, 52:05 PST

“Redeeming all of his creation” means all in the “covenant creation” (“covenantal heavens and earth”). Thus, to avoid the Universalism inherent in placing all men in Revelation’s new heavens and earth (where these are interpreted as the New Testament), Martin is forced to place other men outside of his “covenantal garden of Eden.” Tim King and Kevin Beck, on the other hand, make no qualms that all mankind is redeemed in the new heavens and earth. Such is the mischief the covenantal heavens and earth model has wrought.

Conclusion
Established usage shows that “heavens and earth” were metaphors for thrones and dominions, peoples and nations. They have never had any covenantal signification in scripture. Preterists need to disabuse themselves of this erroneous idea.

The Sword & The Plow Vol. X, No. 3 – April 2008
Newsletter of the Bimillennial Preterist Association

Major Concessions by Kurt Simmons: No Rapture/Resurrection in 70AD

I am wondering how far Kurt Simmons has really stepped away from the view that is commonly called Full Preterism. Based on a recent article, it appears that he is no longer a Full Preterist anymore. I thought Kurt's article was in fact a step in the right direction. If he would see that the change takes place in our life, and not corporately in ad70, then he is a Pret-Idealist. My opinion is that the fundamental difference between Full Pret and my view. That the main motivational event in the minds of every christian in the first century (and beyond) WAS NOT the fall of Jerusalem, but their own impending death. The day that drew near was when they left this mortal realm. I am very pleased to see Kurt's new direction. I am debating on whether or not to call it pret-idealism because it SEEMS his view is that prophecy is personally fulfilled for each in their times.. not corporately in ad70. If it is true that he is teaching no resurrection in AD70, then he is no longer a hyper-preterist. And if the resurrection did not occur in 70AD the the Parousia is also NOT in 70AD.

Kurt Simmons "It also occurs in other eschatological passages to describe the harvest of the saints into the kingdom of God (Matt. 3:12; 13:30). These passages teach that the gathering or harvest was not by rapture, but by martyrdom under Nero and the beast. As each saint died, Christ was there to meet him in the air. If this was true of the martyrs, may it not also be true of every believer? In II Cor. 5:10, Paul said to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Read together with I Thess. 4:17, the result is clear: as we die we are each caught up to meet the Lord in the air “and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

The Sword & The Plow Vol. X, No. 3 – April 2008
Newsletter of the Bimillennial Preterist Association

http://preteristheresy.blogspot.com/2008/04/major-concessions-by-kurt-simmons-no.html

Full/Hyper Preterism is in Shambles

A Dr. in theology (Dr. Kelly Birks) is saying that the Corporate Body View of Resurrection lends itself to Universalism. This is yet ANOTHER major Full Preterist leader saying that there is a connection. YET these people STILL will not listen. The Corporate Body View of Resurrectrion is held by the overwhelming majority of Full Preterist leaders. It would seem like Birks isn't a Full Preterist anymore.

Mike Sullivan "This is fascinating. Before Dallas you clearly told us that you and Mr. Birks were in the process of seeking to prove our view leads to Universalism and that your current questions were along those lines but now you are just asking questions because you are "curious." You are either "curious" and don't know what you are talking about, or you and Mr. Birks want to claim that you do know what you are talking about and can put together a clear proposition. If not please turn from your previously stated and slanderous comments that our position somehow leads to Universalism. "

"If Dallas will not admit that he simply does not know what in the world he is talking about (let alone can formulate an intelligible question) and that he has slandered our position claiming it leads to Universalism while at the same time clearly stating he doesn't know what we believe - would you please consider moderating him?"

"I think because the hate and lack of knowledge on that issue was not addressed previously, it has escaladed into more slander and ignorant foaming at the mouth by Mr. Dallas."
groups.yahoo.com/group/PretCosmos/message/17555

Dallas to Mike Sullivan : Over the years, as I have paid close attention to you, you really do have a problem in your communication to other people. Those with whom you agree, and agree with you, you are pleasant, almost to the point of being cheesy. With those that disagree with you, you assume too much and your mouth speaks your heart.
groups.yahoo.com/group/PretCosmos/message/17558

Mike Sullivan "As for me - I will not be reading (deleting) anything he posts from here on out (unless there is an apology) so as to not get sucked back into responding to his purely slanderous comments. I have answered the fool according to his folly and its time to get down to more meaningful correspondence and study. "
groups.yahoo.com/group/PretCosmos/message/17565

J. Stuart Russell and Universal Reconciliation

If you talk to many preterists, you may often hear of the name J. Stuart Russell. If you want a foundational understanding of Preterism, this is a major book that Preterists often reference. Some Preterist authors give his book away for free if you buy one of their books. LOL! Ironically, by in large, Russell maintained a TYPE of Full Preterism but was certainly not a Full Preterist by today's standards.

Here is a recent article that I found from a unknown source that seems to indicate Russell was a Universalist of sorts. And since Russell is the "Holy Grail" of Preterism, it seems interesting to me that he ends his seemly Full Preterist work with universalistic conclusions. It would seem to me that this FACT speaks volumes to what Preterists seem to deny they believe today and yet THIS WAS the conclusion drawn by Russell's version of Preterism. Though it is not the same, the line in 70AD IS THE SAME and is shown in his writing to be a clear marker where by things ended and began which resulted in his Universalistic comments.

It is always interesting to read the comments of theologians on passages which make clear that all will eventually be reconciled to God. I Corinthians 15:22 is one such passage which reads: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” When J. Stuart Russell comments on I Corinthians in relation to the coming or ‘parousia’ of Christ in his book The Parousia, he seems to indicate that verse 22 along with the rest of the chapter was fulfilled somehow in the 1st century around 70 A.D. However, in his Summary and Conclusion he references John 12:32 “I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me,” as well as Romans 5:19. Both of these passages strongly support universal reconciliation. Because the theme of Russell’s book is that the ‘parousia’ has already occurred, he indicates that the scriptures don’t give us much in the way of prophecy but do however give us some promises such as the above listed scriptures. He continues with a discussion on Romans 5:19-21 stating:

“He does not hesitate to affirm that the restorative work of Christ will ultimately more than repair the ruin wrought by sin. ‘As by one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the obedience of One shall the many be made righteous.’ There would be no point in this comparison if ‘the many’ on the one side of the equation bore no proportion to ‘the many’ on the other side. But this is not all: the redemptive work of Christ does more than redress the balance: it outweighs, and that immeasurably, the counterpoise of evil.”

He concludes by saying:

“This world belongs no more to the devil, but to God. Christ has redeemed it, and will recover it, and draw ALL MEN unto Him. Otherwise it is inconceivable that God would have taught His people in all ages to utter in faith and hope that sublime prophetic prayer:–” (Psalm 67)

According to his own words, J. Stuart Russell can be chalked up most assuredly as a believer in the eventual Salvation of all men - Universal Reconciliation.

thetencommandmentsministry.us/ministry/blog/?p=5

Kurt Simmons: THE LAW STILL EXISTS

Kurt Simmons: "The problem in your assertion that Paul makes the connection between sin and the law (I Cor. 15:56) is that you assume it is the law of Moses that is referred to. Adam, Noah, Abraham, men today, are not under that law and yet were/are under the power of sin, so it clearly is NOT the law of Moses Paul refers to. Moreover, it is not in annulling the law that sin is defeated, but in the atoning sacrifice of Christ. The law still exists! The law of sin and death (you sin/you die) was extant in the garden and is extant now and underlies every commandment of God. This law convicts now as much as it ever did. And if men (apart from Christ) are as much under condemnation now as they were under the Mosaic law, how can its removal have brought about the "resurrection" (justification) King asserts? How can removal of the old ceremonial law of Moses bring a resurrection? Please answer that. Surely, all can see the whole premise of King's Covenant Eschatology is false; I Cor. 15:56 is not even talking about the Mosaic law! "

planetpreterist.com/news-5327.html#34598

http://preteristheresy.blogspot.com/2008/04/kurt-simmons.html

HYPER-Preterist: "DEATH" HAS BEEN DEFEATED "IN AD70"

Ed Burley: The Greek is aionon zoe, and was specific to the first century. No one post-Parousia "inherits eternal life" as DEATH HAS BEEN defeated IN AD70. Eternal life was that which those who "were dead in their trespasses and sins" inherited through faith in Jesus Christ, as the complete Keeper of the Law, the Second Adam, the New Moses, the Greater Prophet.

The parousia returned HUMANITY to God's garden. Through the work of Jesus, all humanity now shares the blessings of God, naked and unashamed. While it may be argued that, in your opinion, I am saying that "all inherit eternal life" I would argue that I am not since eternal life was specific to the Law, which has been done away with.

planetpreterist.com/news-5438.html#37862

http://preteristheresy.blogspot.com/2008/04/hyper-preterist-death-has-been-defeated.html

Kurt Simmons Conceeds "Heavens and Earth" is NOT Mosaical Law

Kurt Simmons "There is not a single occurrence in the Old Testament where “heavens and earth” are used as symbols or metaphors for the law of Moses, temple service, or priesthood. Not one. All instances are strictly confined to instances of world-wide judgment upon men and nations."

What Now Confusion. What Happens After "THE END"

It is interesting how many preterists believe salvation was only for pre-ad70 period or that everyone is saved after 70AD. Comments like this shows how fundamentally destructive the AD70 line is for Christianity. And yet there is not so much as a blush as people declare that the New Testament doesn't apply to today.

Stephen Jackson "I wonder about the Gospel. If all of the "end-times" events culminated in 70 AD, and the Great Tribulation was confined to Israel, then what of salvation? How do we know that the gift of salvation did not end with the Parousia? It could be that all born after that event are irrevocably lost. What evidence from Scripture assures us that we can be saved today?"

groups.yahoo.com/group/PretCosmos/message/17605

Michael Sullivan: "the death" that came through Adam STILL remains

If AD70 is removed as the line of total consummation, then you are teaching a form of pret-idealism. It would be in the vein of John Noe's pret-idealism - which is weighted more heavily on the preterist part - than others, which are more weighted on the idealism part. The point being that Mike is not teaching that the death was defeated in ad70 for everyone. But that the death is defeated "IN CHRIST". This is a huge concession to the hyper-preterist position.

And the dire situation that full preterist armchair theologians find themselves in is acknowledged by Mike

"I suspect Dallas (and Kelley Birks?) are asking these questions on justification so as to try and push me, Dave, and Ed H. into promoting universalism because of our corporate body position"

So here we have yet another attempt at an inconsistent preterism, for the primary purpose of avoiding the plain connection between consistent preterism and universalism.

However, all of the work and effort to save full/hyper preterism is in vain.

"A clever man solves a problem. A wise man avoids it." - Albert Einstein

Michael Sullivan: The effects of "the death" that came through Adam still remain post AD 70, but are no longer magnified by the old-covenant "the law," but from what I see, through the gospel which produces the awareness of the effects of Adam's death and now the Second Death - a denial of Christ as the Tree of Life. So the moment one believes on Christ post AD 70, they are completely justified- made righteous and set free from death and thus "never die" as they enter the gates of the City of the Living God or "world of righteousness."

We don't need an old-covenant Jerusalem or Satan to be "vindicated" from. To be "enslaved" or "persecuted" from an enemy (Jn. 8) has always been typological of ones enslavement to sin in ones heart. Therefore, one is not just made righteous when He walks through the Gates of the City, He has truly been "vindicated" and "set free" as well.

groups.yahoo.com/group/PretCosmos/message/17521

David Chilton: Preterism and the "Eventual Gospel Universalism"

LATER WORK WHEN CHILTON WAS A SELF-STYLED "FULL PRETERIST"(even though he still expected prophecy to be fulfilled in the future)

David Chilton (On "Eventual Gospel Universalism")
(Writing as a Modern Preterist) "It is certainly true that righteousness does not dwell in the earth in an absolute sense; nor will this world ever be absolutely righteous, until the final enemy is defeated at the Second Coming of Christ.. according to God's promise, the saving knowledge of Him will yet fill the earth, as the waters cover the sea.
(Days of Vengeance, 544)

(Writing as a Hyper-Preterist) "Once the Lord came to destroy the scaffolding of the Old Covenant structure, the New Covenant Temple would be left in its place, and the victorious march of the Church would be unstoppable. According to God's predestined design, the world will be converted; the earth's treasures will be brought into the City of God, as the Paradise Mandate (Gen. 1:27-28; Matt. 28: 28:18-20) is consummated (Rev. 21:1-27)." (from "New Heavens and Earth")

(ONE SOLUTION TO THE FP UNIVERSALIST CONUNDRUM IS PLACING UNIVERSAL CONVERSION FARTHER INTO THE FUTURE -- BUT DOES SUCH A GRAND FUTURE EXPECTATION (THE "PARADISE MANDATE" YET TO BE CONSUMMATED) STILL QUALIFY AS FULL PRETERISM? IF THE BIBLE ANTICIPATES WORLD-WIDE CONVERSION.. WOULDN'T THAT BE A PROPHECY AS OF YET UNFULFILLED?)

http://www.preteristarchive.com/Hyper/StudyArchive/chilton-david.html

A New Drug for Hyper-Preterists NOW Available

A new drug for Preterists has now been released. SARCASMA!! For those Hyper-Preterists who seem to want to laugh at futurists who can't seem to figure out what "shortly" or "at hand" really means, this pill may be just what you need. If you have a problem with laughing at everyone including your Preterist brethern just because they may not think like you do (since you are obviously right), and you can not find the humility in your heart to let things be, but have the desire to mock their inadequacies of their intelligence . . . you may need to check this out. This is something that may help you, especially when dealing with those who are less of a Christian because of their beliefs do not line up with your beliefs.

Presence Ministries' Occult Symbol