Modern Idealism: Fulfilled Personally in Jesus Christ

Todd Dennis "It is unfortunate that Idealism has basically become synonymous with a form of Futurism. This has happened because of the tendency to see one historical event (say, AD70) as a type of yet another historical event (such as the events of the end of the world). An illuminating example of how fully the Idealist views of the past have been subsumed by Futurist views can be seen in the following review of an "Idealist" book, which review was written by another Idealist:

"First, it is idealist. That is, it argues that the major visions of Revelation set out a general pattern of spiritual realities and spiritual war applicable throughout the period from Christ’s first coming until the Second Coming. " (Polythress reviews Beale)

In a sense, this form of Idealism is nothing more than a Historicist view, in that prophecy is seen as unfolding in successive centuries until the "final fulfillment." The difference is that a Historicist would tend to see total fulfillment in particular events leading up to the end, whereas this type of Idealist sees fulfillment in particular events as being only typological of the end.

This Futurist form of Idealism is classified as "Historical Idealism" at IdealistArchive.com.

That is to be distinguished from "Modern Idealism," which doesn't see "double" or "multiple" fulfillments at all... but sees all historical events as commonly revealing eternal/spiritual realities which find their fulfillment personally in Jesus Christ. A perfect example of this can be seen in Israel's "land promises" (see Israel's History a Type - From Beginning to End)

I am in complete agreement with Field as he exposes the weaknesses of "Historical Idealism" ; and, consequently, am in general agreement with the whole tenor of the article, as he never rebuts or refutes Modern Idealism.

So, in attempting to collar the Idealist view as "double fulfillment" or "multiple fulfillment" only works if that Idealist teaches that prophecy is to find its ultimate fulfillment in history... and not in Christ.

If prophecy was able to find fulfillment outside of Christ, then the Preterist or Futurist views would have more merit. But by limiting the intent of the Bible's imagery to historical events and natural things -- as natural Israel did, to their disappointment -- the true power and glory of the gospel is lost.

http://www.preteristarchive.com/IdealistArchive/critical/2007_field-david_idealism.html

New Heaven and Earth- A Dwelling Place for Unrighteousness?

Duncan like so many Full Preterist say the new heavens and earth contains unrighteousness as this quote demonstrates. 2 PET. 3:13. "Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness." So I question how one can can say the EXACT opposite of what this verse clearly says in order to support their view.

Duncan McKenzie "The new heaven and earth in Revelation (and Isaiah) is not heaven. Notice, it still has unrighteous people in it, those outside the New (covenant) Jerusalem (Rev. 22:14-15). The new heaven and new earth is a symbolic representation of the post AD 70 spiritual order of this planet. The old covenant order (the old heaven and earth) flees and the new covenant order (the new heaven and earth) is established (Rev. 20:11; 21:1-2)."

preterism.ning.com/profiles/blog/show?id=1632544%3ABlogPost%3A11806

Preterism's Chief Weakness- Narrow Focus by focusing on Historical Events

Gordan Runyan "This is actually a symptom of what I believe is one of Preterism's CHIEF WEAKNESSES. That is, if the book was fulfilled in the events of Jerusalem around 70 AD, then the interpreter's pool of possibilities from which to draw fulfillments of the prophecies is severely restricted. This can result in conflicted and strained attempts to make the very narrow history fit into the vision."

++++++++++

Response from psychohmike "Yeah...I too find it problematic to search for and apply historical events as the true fulfillment of prophecy.

I too have gone from futurism to preterism and beyond. I do believe that 70AD was very significant regarding prophecy...but I think it is a mistake to make it the focal point.

I also think that it is important to remember that sometimes story is more important than the systemization of the text. Jesus told lots of stories. And it is man that systematized His stories into theological door stops."

http://gordansplace.blogspot.com/2008/06/preterist-problems-2.html

One of the MANY Universalism Hermeneutics in Preterism

"1) Sin has been destroyed therefore every person since AD70 comes into the world sinless and reconciled to God without faith in Christ, which makes the gospel of Christ of none effect. or:

2) Sin has not been destroyed and since AD70 every person comes into the world as a member of the body of Christ, without faith in Christ, whose sins are forgiven and reconciled to God who does not impute their sins to them, which makes the gospel of Christ of none effect. or:

3) Since AD70 reconciliation to God is not by grace through faith in Christ, which makes the gospel of Christ of none effect."

planetpreterist.com/news-5495.html#39955

Nathan DuBois: Where Full Preterism Fails

Nathan DuBois
"The "condemnation" from Adam MUST continue for men to be considered guilty today! It was condemnation under the first Adam that condemned men, brought the law, made the need for a redeemer in the first place! To remove this condemnation from the world, as they do the devil and the souls of the dead in the lake of fire, they must declare that men are no longer condemned! Instead, Sam entirely eliminates the sin brought by Adam (leading to the "first death"), and creates a new sin leading to condemnation of the "second death" for those not in Christ. In other words, the problem brought into the world through Adam was NOT conquered by Christ, the wheel was simply reinvented. Not only is Romans 1-5 the undeniable proof that only those "in Christ" are saved, but it is also the biggest part of scripture used to show WHY we need a savior!!! Because under Adam all men are condemned!

Full Preterism has taken a new twist, the entire book to the Romans has become irrelevant in Sam's new law and new death scenario. I will deal with the idea of a "new law" or a "new death" later. The idea that the spiritual came after the natural occurrence is backward but I cannot address that here in this step. Even though both "new" things go against the fabric of Reformed thinking. But the point over all is even if a "new death' or "new law" were NOT created, we have different results from the same judgment.

The issue here is the consistency in the approach. The devil is gone and inactive, irrelevant and being tormented, and so is death. The same punishment for both MUST produce the same results. Do I really need to do a study on Romans to show that the death from Adam is still going on today? Do I need to state anymore that the only way for Full Preterism to answer the devil and death problem is to invent a "new law" that humans break after AD 70, and a "new death" to explain the lake of fire that Universalists get wrong? Reformed Full Preterism must either depart from the Reformed grounding, lead to a Universalist approach, or lead to an Idealist approach.


Where Full Preterism fails this truth is to put it in time. Christ is eternal, he did not become the way, the truth or the life because of any act performed in finite time. He is eternal. He was such when he declared He was. We was such from the beginning. The events that occurred become the fulfillment of something that was always true “in Christ.” In doing so, and making the eternal a matter of time, they run into the forced and unavoidable inconsistencies as shown above."

http://www.preteristarchive.com/Idealism/2007_dubois_fp-vs-idealism_02.html

Kurt Simmons: Nullification of the Mosaic law is what MAN needed the most

Kurt Simmons "
Herein lays a great Preterist stumbling block and gaff. (AMONG OTHER THINGS) Paul’s characterization of the law as a “ministration of death” is thought by some to signify that the Mosaic law was the sole condemning force of mankind, and that by its removal man is made just before the tribunal of God. One writer thus states {Richard McPherson} “the defeat of sin is tied to the annulment of the old aeon of law.” And “when the “ministration of death written in tables of stone’ was finally destroyed, death was swallowed up in victory.” Another Preterist {Larry Seigle} has stated “You cannot see what the Mosaic Law had to do with deliverance from sin-death… Nullification of the Mosaic Law represented what humanity needed most--deliverance from a system of Law that COULD NOT SAVE.” Did you catch that? Nullification of the Mosaic law is what man needed most! Man is delivered from sin and death by annulment of the Mosaic law, not the cross of Christ! SERIOUS STUFF, INDEED! "

preteristcentral.com/pmisc.II%20Cor.3.htm

Thomas Whittemore: Voices of Arrogance on the Dating of Revelation

Thomas Whittemore: A Commentary on the Revelation of St. John, the Divine (1848)

"For our part, we are willing to confess, that if a man believes the Apocalypse was not written until after the destruction of Jerusalem, and if he believes in the common notions concerning the day of God's wrath, the judgment of the dead, the great dragon, the bottomless pit, &c., &c., he cannot understand the book. He will be continually hampered by his pre-conceived system ; and, in harmony with such a system, no probable interpretation can be given. Although Professor Stuart has produced an excellent work upon the Apocalypse, — the most consistent and valuable, we think of any we've have ever seen, — yet he was manifestly troubled and warped in his judgment in interpreting certain parts by his theological system, or creed, especially his belief in endless misery, and the popular notions of a future judgment. "

Preterism Unique but Useless

As long as Christ remains outside of us, Christ HAS NO VALUE FOR US

"We must understand that as long as Christ remains outside of us, and we are separated from him, ALL THAT HE HAS SUFFERED AND DONE FOR THE HUMAN RACE REMAINS USELESS AND OF NO VALUE FOR US." Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion

"Just as originally individuals were laid hold of by Christ, so even now it is always through the work of Christ himself, mediated by his spiritual presence in the Word, that individuals are taken up into participation in the new life." Schleiermacher, The Christian Faith

THIS IS TRUE, IF THE SPIRIT ACTUALLY PENETRATES INTO THE HEART. This goes against a horizontal system such as Preterism which makes everything change through the events of 70 AD. All meaningless without a vertically integrated system.

The "Timeless" Eschatology of Karl Barth

G. C. Berkouwer. The Return of Christ

Even before Brunner, Karl Barth, in his Epistle to the romans, had pointed to the eschaton and called attention to the transcendent sovereignty of God over all that is temporal and human in morality, culture, and religion, stressing particularly that eschatology is not mainly concerned with futuristic conditions, but with complete actuality of the eschatological proclamation in the present. Barth reacted sharply against the old eschatology as a "short and perfectly harmless chapter" at the end of dogmatics. Instead he saw the eschaton - God as the Last in the existential crisis of man living constantly at the brink of God's eternity. This eternity was not temporally remote but was intimately connected with and relevant for everyday life. Barth's thought in this period is sometimes characterized as "timeless" eschatology, which sees the parousia as nothing but a timeless symbol of the endless seriousness of eternity in every existential situation. There was no end of history in terms of time on a horizontal place, but only a vertical eschaton marked by the permanent crisis in life and the actual gravity of the nearness of God. (page 27)

Hymenaeus & Philetus were heretics condemned becuase their TIMING WAS OFF

Sam Dawson "It's evident that Hymenaeus and Philetus believed in the resurrection as the hope of Israel as the gospel which Paul preached, but they were mistaken on the time element of it." gospelthemes.com/eschatologyfaq.htm

William Bell "Briefly stated, if we do in fact have a resurrection already past, it means one has erred and destroys the faith of others. It is, on the surface a seeming just charge. However, the failure to address the time issues of a passage in which timing is a critical component is a far too hasty assessment. Paul draws attention to their words, "resurrection already past. That is a time issue. It implies that it must be compared or contrast with something that can be measured as "not already." "Now that we have our TEMPORAL MEASURING LINE, the A.D. 70 destruction of Jerusalem as the imminent event and time of the Lord's return, we can clearly see the fallacy of the Hymenaen heresy in saying that the resurrection had occurred. It was an error in time to teach that the event happened too soon."

Don Preston "They were not affirming the past occurrence of the end of the physical cosmos. They were affirming — prematurely — the full revelation of salvation."

His Second Coming, CERTAINLY TOOK PLACE in 70AD

Otis Ainsworth Skinner. The theory of William Miller, concerning the end of the world in 1843 UTTERLY EXPLODED. 1840.

"Speaking of the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain." Is lxvi. 22. By new heavens and new earth, he SIMPLY MEANS the new dispensation. This, therefore, came shortly."

"By consulting Rev. xxi. 10,24,26, it will be seen, that even after the heavens and the earth fled away, the earth was still standing with nations upon it. Hence this passing away of the heavens and earth which succeeded them, are the gospel dispensation, the holy city, the new Jerusalem."

"What was meant by the coming of Christ? NOT A PERSONAL APPEARANCE OF THE SAVIOR, FOR NO SUCH APPEARANCE TOOK PLACE AT THAT TIME."

"We see, then, that the coming of Christ, his second coming, CERTAINLY TOOK PLACE, at the time of the destruction of the Jewish state."

"Allowing that Jesus did come, and did execute judgment, as has been shown, may there not still be another coming to judgment? That there is to be another coming of Christ, WE DO NOT DENY; BUT WE DO DENY, THAT AT HIS FINAL COMING HE WILL EXECUTE JUDGMENT UPON ANY. Where is your proof of such a judgment, if it be not in the text we have quoted? THERE IS NO PROOF. WILL YOU SAY THESE TEXT HAVE DOUBLE MEANING? Why did he not say, There things shall in part come upon this generation, and in part at the end of the universe? Besides, shall we go back to the long since exploded doctrine of a double meaning to Scripture, to sustain this theory? Had we not much better abandon it, than to revive any thing so foolish and absurd?"

On Isa XXV. 6,7,8 "In these words, the prophet first speaks of the provision of grace, and declares, that they are made for all people, by which Christians now almost universally understand the WHOLE HUMAN FAMILY."

"Revelation according to the preterist is now a history book"

"Discussing the dating is a very interesting topic. In fact, the full impact of the preterist view leads to some ridiculous conclusions about the book of Revelations itself. Revelations according to the preterist is now a history book. That said, even to ponder such a notion seems ridiculous . . . "

thepresstheosophical.blogspot.com/2008/05/musings-on-preterism-3.html

Don Preston "Preterist do not spiritualize language that is intended to be literal"

Don Preston "This accusation is the same as the charge of allegorization, and it is false. Preterist do not spiritualize language that is intended to be literal, or at least that is not our intent or aim."

eschatology.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=200&Itemid=61

David Chilton: "The Eventual Gospel Universalism"

David Chilton "The Christian goal for the world is the UNIVERSAL DEVELOPMENT of biblical theocratic republics, in which every area of life is redeemed and placed under the Lordship of Jesus Christ and the rule of God's Law."

"Once the Lord came to destroy the scaffolding of the Old Covenant structure, the New Covenant Temple would be left in its place, and the victorious march of the Church would be unstoppable. According to God's predestined design, the world will be converted; the earth's treasures will be brought into the City of God, as the Paradise Mandate (Gen. 1:27-28; Matt. 28:18-20) is consummated (Rev. 21:1-27)."

"Once the old had been swept away, St. Peter declared, the Age of Christ would be fully established, an era "in which righteousness dwells" (2 Pet. 3:13). The distinguishing characteristic of the new era, in stark contrast to what preceded it, would be righteousness - increasing righteousness, as the Gospel would be set free in its mission to the nations. There have been many battles throughout Church history, of course, and many battles lie ahead. But these must not blind us to the very real progress that the Gospel has made and continues to make in the world. The New World Order of the Lord Jesus Christ has arrived; and, according to God's own promise, the saving knowledge of Him will fill the earth, as the waters cover the sea (Isa. 11:9)."

Peter Leithart: Forty Year Millennium is NONSENSE

Peter J Leithart. Promise Of His Appearing. 2004.

"Further, the “hyper-preterist” must reduce the Millennium of Revelation 20 to a symbolic description of a forty-year period between the resurrection of Jesus and the destruction of Jerusalem. Whatever the difficulties of Revelation 20, one clear conclusion is that the “thousand years” symbolizes a significant period of time. When not used literally, the number one thousand is used consistently to describe things that are literally far more than one thousand: For every beast of the forest is Mine, the cattle on a thousand hills. (Ps. 50:10) For a thousand years in Thy sight are like yesterday when it passes by or as a watch in the night. (Ps. 90:4) 10 Ibid., 201. He remembered His covenant forever, the word which He commanded to a thousand generations. (Ps. 105:8)

It is nonsense to use “one thousand years” to symbolize a generation." (Page 6-7)

“Heavens and Earth” is not used to describe an historical event

Peter J Leithart. Promise Of His Appearing. 2004.

"Another difficulty with Chilton’s treatment is that he is content to point to passages where the destruction of the “heavens and earth” is obviously used to describe an historical event, the collapse of a political-religious order. It is increasingly acknowledged among New Testament scholars that this language can be used in this metaphorical sense, but it also has to be established that Peter is using this terminology in this way. The language of resurrection, to take a parallel example, can be used to describe Israel’s national resurrection (e.g., Ezek. 37), but the church has never taken the resurrection of 1 Corinthians 15 in this sense. I cannot say that this commentary moves from possibility to absolute certainty, but I hope to show that within 2 Peter the probability that Peter is using the terminology metaphorically is quite high." (page 5)

Children of wrath were not those living before 70AD

Scot McKnight "We are testing a hypothesis, namely, this one: Does “wrath” refer only to “historical” events in history, the negative implications of doing things contrary to God’s will . . . "

On Ephesians 2:1-11 "What this text by Paul teaches is that:

1. All humans, not just Gentiles but also Jews, all humans are under the wrath of God.
2. All humans are “because of their nature” children of wrath.
3. All humans are the receptors of God’s mercy in Christ."

"This is not simply historical wrath, though it could have some of that. I would see this as eternal wrath — God’s wrath against sin and against sinners."

http://www.jesuscreed.org/?p=3928

The Universalism of Virgil Vaduva (Planet Preterist)

"As I mentioned before in conversations with other people, why is Universalism such a bad conclusion to preterist eschatology IF that indeed ends up being the conclusion?" Virgil on Thursday, February 21 @ 09:05:22 PST

"The Parousia quite certainly brought about a universal aspect to this atonement issue...Regarding the free will issue, I agree with you, but I don't want to rehash the whole "free to go to hell" argument, which does not seem to be consistent with what we know about God and how he feels about us." Virgil on Thursday, February 21 @ 11:36:52 PST

"From a Preteristic perspective the issue of salvation loses its institutional dimension even more. Paul and the first century Church were expecting salvation from death to be brought about as a result of the Parousia of Christ. Not for a few, but for all. Bishop Ware recognized this: “He [Paul] does not say, “All may perhaps be made alive,” but “All will be made alive.” At the very least this encourages us to hope for the salvation of all.” Bishop Ware takes this one step further, suggesting exactly what I have been suggesting for a couple of years, a universal reconciliation between the Creator and the Creation." Virgil Vaduva, What is Salvation?, Posted on Monday, December 11 @ 17:33:55 PST

It is quite clear to me that the general thread of the Scripture revolves around God's furious pursuit of mankind, and His effort to reconcile and redeem the entire creation back to Himself. Despite the inclusive language of Revelation, many Preterists continue to play word games, most likely because tradition and preconceptions do not allow them to be flexible enough to perceive that "all" mean "all." Virgil Vaduva, The Ugly Side of Preterism: Self-righteousness and the Politics of Personal Destruction, 6/5/2005 PlantetPreterist

Christ's sacrifice had been already paid once, for all people. As a result, they all have been redeemed yet not all have been made aware of the reality of redemption. Virgil Vaduva, The Ugly Side of Preterism: Self-righteousness and the Politics of Personal Destruction, 6/5/2005 PlantetPreterist

(Among Preterist-Universalists, there are distinctions made between #1 salvation = coming into the awareness of redemption. #2 salvation = redemption in that there is no more death. #3 salvation = from out of the wrath. This one is Israel specific.)

If Jesus died for all the sins of all men and unbelief is a sin then why aren't all men saved? -- You tell me! Why do you think this debate is taking place right now? Virgil Vaduva, Planet Preterist post, Wednesday, September 14 @ 05:55:29 PDT

I love Gary Amirault's site - sometimes he makes almost too much sense for me, which is scary. Virgil Vaduva, Planet Preterist post, Wednesday, August 30 @ 18:48:28 PDT 8/30/06

(Gary Amirault is an unabashed Universalist and hosts Tent-Maker Ministries.)

God’s pursuit of mankind has gone so far that the Creator has become one of the Created in order to finalize the quest for reconciliation of all things, on heaven and on earth. This it appears, creates problems for some believers that insist they alone possess the special ticket which allows entrance into Heaven. Virgil Vaduva, Repainting a Beautiful Faith, 11/7/06 http://www.planetpreterist.com/news-5019.html

[Comment: These quotes all demonstrate that, despite his protests to the contrary, Mr. Vaduva has strong Universalist leanings. No one of normal Biblical knowledge or grounding could make these statements unless he did.]

Don Preston: "There is no scriptural justification for a futurist eschatology"

Don Preston "I am not trying to be unkind here. I fully understand his struggle, and I have nothing but the highest regard for him and his writings! However, the answer that he has given you overlooks or denies too much Biblical testimony. I am convinced, since I feel that our friend is an honest student of the Lord's Word, that one day, he will submit to the consistent testimony of the Word, and acknowledge that Christ's parousia did indeed occur in A.D. 70. There is no scriptural justification for a futurist eschatology."

eschatology.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=603&Itemid=61

New Testament Age: This New Covenent or New Testament FOREVER REMOVED THE BARRIER (in 70AD?)

Jerry Bowers "I personally believe that SOME in the field of Fulfilled Eschatology owe an explanation to the world. Many within Fulfilled Eschatology make the mistake (in my mind) of saying that ALL PROPHECY has been fulilled / completed / ended, this is a false statement.

Fulfilled Eschatology is the Study related to the END TIME events in Scripture which do not point to the end of mankind or the end or re-construction of this planet. Fulfilled Eschatology to be properly understood should be taught to be in reference to being that of the Study of the END TIME events that were about the Consumation of the Old Covenental System ELEMENTS (Temple, Priest's, Sacrifices, etc...) and the believers of or in that system; which then leads into the New Covenental System (Church, Body of Christ) and its believers, Christians! No distinction or spearation between Jew or Gentile, Male nor Female, Bond or Free but ONE in the body of Christ.

This New Covenent or New Testament forever removed the barrier, burden & yoke of this old system. As we now live in this New Testament Age; Ecclesiastes 1:4 & Ephesians 3:21 tell us we live in an AGE or WORLD WITHOUT END. Revelation 21:25-26 shows there will always be believers entering the Gates of New Jerusalem for time & eternity. Isaiah 9:7 says this "Increase" WILL NEVER END so we and this earth are living prophecy that is never consumated. "

gapevangelising.webs.com/frontpage.htm

Only a Preterist can say "Mine eyes HAVE SEEN the glory of the COMING OF THE LORD"

I guess you have to be a Preterist to sing the Battle Hymn of the Republic. Maybe Julia Ward Howe who wrote this song was a Preterist. WRONG! Maybe, Preterists are the ones who have it backwards. Maybe one can see the glory of the Coming of the Lord without writing 70AD into the words. And maybe one can see and declare how marvelous it is for him to come in his glory without 70AD being in our minds.

"There is nothing futurist or dispensationalist in the words of this song. What is more preteristic than "Mine eyes HAVE SEEN the glory of the COMING OF THE LORD"? The words are not WILL SEE, they are the preterist HAVE SEEN. A clear reference I believe to Math 16:27-28."

planetpreterist.com/news-5495.html#39887

Virgil Vaduva's Arrogance: "We know more than you"

Virgil Vaduva must be looking to boost his confidence in himself by blasting away at any blog post he can find that has anything negative to say about Preterism. Virgil definitely shows how arrogant he truly is toward people who have questions toward Preterism. Virgil demonstrates a common tendency that is shown among Hyper-Preterists. A tendency which appears by his willingness "to be right." Certainly what "he knows" is much better and purer than what "you know."

Virgil Says: June 6, 2008 at 1:18 pm "You must think you are the first guy to ask all these questions apparently…”I got them” right? With very little effort, you can actually get answers to all your questions. If you visit preterism.com and read the Frequently Asked Questions section, you will understand that you are not the first, nor will you be the last to “get us.”

Also, you are not “exposing” preterism by posting a quick question on your blog. If you actually think that, you are greatly misguided and are not motivated by truth, but by a spirit of name-calling, which you apparently are quite comfortable with.

Most Preterists can run circles around you as far as “scripture knowing” goes, so put less pride in your knowledge and trust the word of God a little more."

cnevarez.wordpress.com/2008/06/05/preterism-exposed/

Comment by Virgil 2008-07-09 20:44:07 "If those of you trying to refuse Preterism are really motivated to do so, you need to do better. So far I only see mockery and personal attacks coming from this crowd. Come on folks - if you want to be taken serious, throw in some scripture once in a great while!"

pulpit-pimps.org/archives/2008/06/23/the-okay-debater#comment-74791

The gospel is FINISHED/COMPLETE in AD70

David Green "Thus preterism is the antidote to Emergent (and process theology). According to preterism, the gospel is FINISHED/COMPLETE. There are no more pieces of the gospel story that await accomplishment. What the gospel was in A.D. 71, it is today, and will be 10,000,000,000 years from now. There’s no more “emerging” to be done, because it is already done. The process was consummated nearly 2,000 years ago. The process philosophy of the Emergent cult is at its root wholly incompatible with preterism.

McLaren doesn’t understand this yet, but he will — after preterism decimates the Emergent cult from the inside out."

preteristblog.com/?p=449

The Impact of Hyperpreterism

Roderick Edwards "The “impact of hyperpreterism” is seen through not only the bad theology it breeds in more quantities than anything within even dispensationalism; such as universalism, antinomianism, relativism, & socialism but also how it negatively affects individual lives in an increased quantity. Such as major leaders within hyperpreterism cheating on their wives, or becoming atheists, or advocating polygamy or condoning excessive drinking because hey, at least they take care of their kids. No, no, they won’t see this connection but they can claim the supposed positives all day long."

preteristblog.com/?p=452

70AD was the Judgement of ALL AGES. ROFL

Anonymous Preterist "This is the judgment that took place in A.D. 70. Judgment often deals with determination. It is a point at which something is detemined but which has long-lasting effects. When Jesus came in A.D. 70 and destroyed that Old Testament system of types and shadows, He executed His judgment--the righteous (of all ages) would enter His presence; the wicked (of all ages) would be cast out. (NOTE: JUDGMENT OF ALL AGES, EVEN THE UNBORN WAS IN 70AD, ACCORDING TO THIS STATEMENT) There would no longer be a waiting period in Hades. (MAGICALLY OCCURRED I GUESS BY THE DESTRUCTION OF A PHYSICAL NATION) REMOVED Since that time, ALL righteous who die go to be with the Lord; ALL the wicked who die are cast out! (NOTE: I THOUGHT HE JUST SAID THIS HAPPENED IN 70AD) For the saints, it came down to this: If we die, we yet live; if we live, we never die! Death lost its sting and its victory because there was now immediate passage into the presence of Christ foever!"

city-data.com/forum/christianity/338082-preterism-has-christ-already-returned-11.html

Brian McLaren Flirting with Heretical Preterism?

Brian McLaren "Fourth, we should consider the possibility that many, and perhaps even all of Jesus’ hell-fire or end-of-the-universe statements refer not to postmortem judgment but to the very historic consequences of rejecting his kingdom message of reconciliation and peacemaking. The destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 67-70 seems to many people to fulfill much of what we have traditionally understood as hell."

blog.christianitytoday.com/outofur/archives/2006/05/brian_mclarens_2.html

KingJames1 "To suggest that the same figurative usage pertains is to beg the question. Fourthly, the suggestion that we consider ‘the possibility’ that such language of judgment and fire be understood, not as postmortem damnation, but as the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70 is, theoretically, good and fine. I have personally considered it, and find it untenable. But now who has ‘reduced’ the very ‘metaphorical language’ of Jesus on hell (certainly ‘Gehenna’ itself, as a designation of the place of judgment, is metaphorical or analogical) to a ‘concrete’ reality (i.e., the Roman destruction of the Temple)? Man, how unspiritual of McLaren!"

http://www.opensourcetheology.net/node/912

DEATH IS NO MORE. Men NO LONGER PERISH, as they did in the first Adam

Ronda Hafley ""Yes." Death is no more. Men no longer perish, as they did in the first Adam. In Christ, death was swallowed up with Life. (HOW IS DEATH SWALLOWED UP WITH LIFE IN CHRIST IF IT IS NO MORE?)

Since the "judgment" occurred in 70AD, and Tartarus was holding rebellious angels til that time, its sensible to assume it no longer exists.

I tend to believe that the earth will continue on "to times indefinite"; the scriptures never were written regarding the destruction of the earth, but all references were to the destruction of the wicked "world" (NOT TO THE WICKED WORLD THAT EXISTS TODAY, THE PRE-70AD WICKED WORLD) --such as the flood in Noah's day--and the judgment in 70AD that destroyed that "world"--not the literal earth. As to whether it will remain forever, nobody can say. But we can say with certainty that the earth itself isn't going to be destroyed (WHAT? NOBODY CAN SAY, BUT WE SAY, LOL) --not by God's decree and certainly not by allowing mankind to do it. "

groups.yahoo.com/group/fullpreteriststudiesgroup/message/4683

Jerry Bowers "As most know, I am more concerned and focused on the timing of these events"

Jerry Bowers "As most know, I am more concerned and focused on the timing of these events as I believe timing is a fundamental area that must be accepted prior to one delving in deeper to understand the differences between what was to occur in the Natural World and what was to take place in the Spiritual Realm."

Kurt Simmons: Voss thinks resurrection IS NOT the receipt of a spiritual body at death. BLAH

Kurt Simmons to Norman Voss "Notice that Norman’s definition of resurrection IS NOT the receipt of a spiritual body at death or entrance into heaven above, but justification from sin during life. This is the fundamental error of the corporate body view. The hope of resurrection is the hope of eternal life in heaven above, not justification from sin on earth. I have been justified from sin, washed in the blood of the Lamb. But that is not resurrection. Lazarus was raised when he came out of the grave (Hades); he was justified when he repented and was baptized. The two are not the same. Preterists need to quit confusing these two very different and separate aspects of redemption."

The Sword & The Plow Vol. X, No. 5 – June 2008

Kurt Simmons says to FLEE MAX KING's Universalism

Kurt Simmons "Notice that Tim King says all men (“man”) are reconciled to God (Universalism) based upon the world’s (“heavens and earth”) purported change through removal of the Mosaic law. The issue is cosmic and corporate, not individual and limited. If this is not Universalism, what is it? Furthermore, notice that under King’s model man is saved, not by the addition of grace, but by the removal of law. It is the removal of the Mosaic law that redeems and reconciles mankind! A dangerous, cross-diminishing doctrine if ever there was one! Preterists, FLEE MAX KING!"

The Sword & The Plow Vol. X, No. 5 – June 2008

Kurt Simmons "Our earthly house of this tabernacle” is the earthen vessel or physical body

AMEN! Looks like Simmons is silencing Full Preterists claims that the resurrection "body of death" is corporately applied to 70AD. Simmons makes the point that the "body of death" is that of our fleshly body. This view seems to diminish was is taught throughout Full Preterism. This seems to be a step in the RIGHT direction.

Kurt Simmons ""Our earthly house of this tabernacle” is the earthen vessel or physical body of the believer. Peter makes this abundantly clear when he says “I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance; knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me” (II Pet. 1:13, 14). Peter’s reference is to his impending martyrdom, which Jesus foretold many years before (John 21:18). This one verse shows that the reference is not a mystical body of believers looking for the dissolution of a corporate “body of death” under the Mosaic law. Nay, rather, the context established in chapter four makes conclusive that the dissolution of the body in view is the apostle’s own body; Paul say that death of the physical body is of little moment to the Christian because he has another house, another body eternal in heaven. Use of the plural pronoun “our” with the singular “earthly house” should not mislead us; it is merely an idiom of speech, not a mystical allusion to the body of believers."

Kurt on II Cor. 5:5-8 "This passage dispels entirely the notion that the corporate body of believers is in view. At home in the earthly tabernacle of the physical body is to be absent from the Lord in heaven; but to be absent from the physical body is to be present with the Lord above. This is every true believer’s ultimate hope: the time when the sorrows and troubles of earthly life are laid aside and we hear those words “Well done, good and faithful servant; enter thou into the joy of thy Lord” (Matt. 25:21, 23)."

The Sword & The Plow Vol. X, No. 5 – June 2008

Albert Barnes: O Jerusalem! Taking Refuge in Jesus Christ

Albert Barnes. Sermons on Important Subjects. 1854.

"Jerusalem! Jerusalem! thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent to thee, though upon the kind design of reforming and saving thee, and who wilt, in a few days, crucify that Savior who now laments thy doom, how often would he have gathered even thy ungrateful children and received them under his protection, with an affection and tenderness, like the instinctive fondness and solicitude of the mother-hen for her brood ! Here is divine compassion, indeed, that extends itself even to his enemies, to his murderers ! Strange, that such generous benevolence should meet with an ungrateful repulse, that the provoked Sovereign should be willing to receive his rebellious subjects into protection, but that they should be unwilling to fly to him for it!"

And while denouncing the most terrible woes against Jerusalem, in an abrupt flow of passion he breaks out in the most moving lamentation over her : " O Jerusalem, Jerusalem ! thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not !" This is one of those tender cases which requires a familiar and moving, rather than a grand illustration ; and that which Jesus has here chosen is one of the most tender, familiar and moving that could be devised. " How often would I have gathered thee, O, Jerusalem, as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings." — As much as to say, " As the parent-bird, when she sees some bird of prey hovering over her helpless young, gives them the signal, which nature teaches them to understand, and spreads her wings to protect them, resolved to become a prey herself rather than her tender brood ; or, as she shelters them from the rain and cold, and cherishes them under her friendly feathers, so, says the compassionate Redeemer ; so, O Jerusalem ! I see thy children, like heedless chickens, in the most imminent danger ; I see the judgments of God hovering over them ; I see the Roman eagle ready to seize them as its prey ; I see storms of vengeance ready to fall upon them ; and how often have I invited them to fly to me for shelter, and gave them the signal of their danger! How often have I spread the wings of my protection to cover them, and keep them warm and safe as in my bosom ! But, O ! lamentable ! O ! astonishing ! ye would not ! I was willing, but ye would not ! The silly chickens, taught by nature, understand the signal of approaching danger, and immediately fly for shelter ; but ye, more silly and presumptuous, would not regard my warnings ; would not believe your danger, nor fly to me for protection, though often, O how often, warned and invited !" His compassion will appear the more surprising, IF WE CONSIDER THE OBJECT OF IT.

That sinners, while from under the protection of Jesus Christ, are in a very dangerous situation — that they may obtain safety by putting themselves under his protection — that he is willing to receive the greatest sinners under his protection — that he has often used means to prevail upon them to fly to him, that they may be safe — that notwithstanding all this, multitudes are unwilling to fly to him, and put themselves under his protection — that this unwillingness of theirs is the real cause- of their destruction — that this unwillingness is an instance of the most irrational and brutal stupidity — and that it is very affecting and lamentable. The text implies, THAT SINNERS, while from under the protection of Jesus Christ, are in a very dangerous situation. As the hen does not give the signal of danger, nor spread her wings to shelter her young, except when she sees danger approaching, so the Lord Jesus would not call sinners to fly to him for protection, were they not in real danger. SINNERS, you are in danger from the curse of the divine law, which is in full force against you, while you have no interest in the righteousness of Christ, which alone can answer its demands : You are in danger from the dread arrest of divine justice, which guards the sacred rights of the divine government, and will avenge itself upon you for all the insults you have offered it : You are in danger from the various judgments of God, who is angry with you every day, and whose judgments are hovering over you, and ready to seize you, like hungry birds of prey.

You are in danger from your own conscience, which would be your best friend ; but it is now ready to rise up in arms against you, and, like an insatiable vulture, prey upon your hearts for ever : You are in danger from the arrest of death, which is ready every moment to stretch out its mortal hand, and seize you : You are in danger from the malice and power of devils, who, like hungry lions, are ready to snatch away your souls, as their helpless prey. In short, you are surrounded with dangers on every hand, and dangers rise still more thick and dreadful before you. You are not sure of an hour's enjoyment of one comfort : nay, you are not sure there is so much as one moment between you and all the miseries of the damned. This minute you are upon earth, thoughtless, secure and gay ; but the next may be— I tremble to tell you where — in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone, tormented in flames. Yes, sinners, one flying moment may strip you entirely naked of all the enjoyments of earth, cut you off from all hope of heaven, and engulf you in remediless despair. Some of you, whose very case this is, will not, probably, believe me, nor take the alarm. But here, alas ! lies your principal danger. If you would take warning in time, you might escape ; but you will not believe there is danger until it becomes inevitable. — Had Lot's sons-in-law taken warning from him, they might have escaped ; but they saw no sensible appearance of the impending judgment, and, therefore, they continued blindly secure, regarded the good old man as a mocker, and, therefore, perished in Sodom. Had Jerusalem been apprehensive of its danger in time, it might have flourished to this day ; but it would not be warned, and, therefore, became a ruinous heap : and this will be your doom, sinners, unless you be apprehensive of it before it breaks upon you like a whirlwind. Indeed it may make one sad to think how common this danger is, and how little it is apprehended, to see crowds thoughtless and merry on the brink of ruin ; secure and careless while hanging over the infernal pit by the frail thread of life.

"But here a grand question arises in the minds of some of you " How may I know whether I have fled to Jesus for protection? How may I know whether I have placed myself under his guardian wings?" This is a question of the utmost importance.

If ye are Christ's, then, saith the apostle, " all things are yours, whether life, or death, or things present, or things to come, all are yours," 1 Cor. iii. 21 ; that is, you have a kind of property in all things that you have any connection with, so that they shall work together for your good, as if they were all your own, by a private right. Brethren, if we ere covered with the righteousness of Christ, the sword of divine justice cannot reach us. AH its demands are answered, and justice itself becomes our friend. If we are sheltered under the wings of his guardian care, the most threatening dangers of time or eternity cannot affect us with real injury. How happy then, how safe are such of you as have put yourselves under his protection ! Now every blessing is yours, and nothing can do you a real injury. You shall never fall a prey to your various enemies, but shall at length obtain an illustrious victory over them all, through the blood of the Lamb. To you I may apply those sublime words of Moses, " As an eagle stirrethup her nest, fluttereth over her young, spreadeth abroad her wings, taketh them, beareth them on her wings, so the Lord alone does and will lead you," Deut. xxxii. 11, 12, defend you, cherish you, and bear you along to your eternal home. You have, therefore, reason, with David, amidst all the peculiar dangers of this life, to rejoice under the shadow of his wings. The name of the Lord is a strong tower, and you have fled to it, and are safe. Amidst all your fears and terrors, have you not some secure and delightful hours, when you, as it were, feel yourselves gathered under the wings of your Redeemer? In such hours, do not even such weaklings as you dare to brave all your enemies, and bid defiance to earth and hell? O how happy, how secure is your situation ! But here a grand question arises in the minds of some of you." How may I know whether I have fled to Jesus for protection? How may I know whether I have placed myself under his guardian wings?" This is a question of the utmost importance.

Observe then, if ever you have fled to Jesus for safety, you have been made deeply sensible of your danger. If ever you have sought shekel under his wings, you have seen your sins, the curses of the law, and the powers of hell, as it were, hovering over you, and ready to seize and devour you as their prey. You have also been made deeply sensible, that Jesus alone was able to save you. You found you could not shelter yourselves under the covert of your own righteousness, and were constrained to give up all hopes of saving yourselves by any thing you could do in your own strength. Hereupon, as perishing, helpless creatures, you have cast yourselves entirely upon the protection of Jesus Christ, and put your souls into his hands, to be saved by him in his own way : and you have also submitted freely to his authority, willing to be ruled and disposed of entirely according to his pleasure. These few things must suffice to determine this grand inquiry ; and I hope you will make use of them for that purpose: if they help you to discover that you have fled to Jesus for refuge, rejoice in your happy lot, and let your mouths be filled with praise. But alas! are there not some of you that have made the contrary discovery, and, consequently, that you are exposed to all the dreadful dangers of a sinner without Christ? And is there no place of safety for you? Yes, under those wings where believers have sheltered themselves. In Jesus Christ there is safety, if you fly to him : but you may perhaps inquire, " What encouragement have I to fly to him? I, who am so vile a sinner ; I, who have nothing at all to recommend me 1 Can I hope that he will stretch out the wings of his mercy, and receive me into protection 1" Yes, poor, trembling creature, even you may venture ; for remember what my text farther implies, viz."

(Page 326-342)

Ken Gentry - Hyper-Preterism is BOGUS

Ken Gentry

1.) Creedal Failure-
First, hyper-preterism is heterodox. It is outside the creedal orthodoxy of Christianity. No creed allows any second Advent in A. D. 70. No creed allows any other type of resurrection than a bodily one. Historic creeds speak of the universal, personal judgment of all men, not of a representative judgment in A. D. 70. It would be most remarkable if the entire church that came through A. D. 70 missed the proper understanding of the eschaton and did not realize its members had been resurrected! And that the next generations had no inkling of the great transformation that took place! Has the entire Christian church missed the basic contours of Christian eschatology for its first 1900 years?

2.) Biblical Perspicuity -
Second, hyper-preterism has serious implications for the perspicuity of Scripture. This viewpoint not only has implications for the later creeds, but for the instructional abilities of the apostles: no one in church history knew the major issues of which they spoke -- until very recently! Are the Scriptures that impenetrable on an issue of that significance? Clement of Rome lived through A. D. 70 and had no idea he was resurrected! He continued to look for a physical resurrection (Clement 50:3). Jude's (supposed) grandsons still sought a physical resurrection (cf. Eusebius, EH 3:24:4). Whoever these men were, they came right out of the first generation and in the land of Israel -- with absolutely no inkling of an A. D. 70 resurrection or a past second Advent. See also the Didache 10:5; 16:1ff (first century); Ignatius; Trallians 9:2; Smyrnaens 2:1; 6:1; Letter to Polycarp 3:2 (early second century); Polycarp 2:1; 6:2; 7:1. See also Papias, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr.

3.) No Canon -
Third, the hyper-preterist system leaves the New Covenant Christian (in our post-A. D. 70 era) without a canon. If all prophecy was fulfilled prior to A. D. 70 and if the entire New Testament spoke to issues in the pre-A. D. 70 time frame, we do not have any directly relevant passages for us. The entire New Testament must be transposed before we can use it.

4.) Hermeneutic Failure-
Fourth, hyper-preterism suffers from serious errors in its hermeneutical methodology. When a contextually defined passage applies to the A. D. 70 event, the hyper-preterist will take all passages with similar language and apply them to A.D. 70, as well. But similarity does not imply identity; Christ cleansed the temple twice and in virtually identical ways; but the two events are not the same. Furthermore, we must distinguish sense and referent; there are several types of "resurrection" in Scripture: the dry bones of Ez. 37; spiritual redemption in John 5:24; physical redemption at the grave in John 5:28; Israel's renewal in Christ in Rom. 11:15; and of the Beast in Rev. 13:3. I hold that passages specifically delimiting the time-frame by temporal indicators (such as "this generation," "shortly," "at hand," "near," and similar wording) are to be applied to A. D. 70, but similar-sounding passages may or may not be so applied.

5.) Resurrection Errors-
Fifth, there is a serious problem with the removal of the physical resurrection from systematic theology. Christ's resurrection is expressly declared to be the paradigm of our own ( 1 Cor. 15:20ff) . Yet we know that his was a physical, tangible resurrection ( Lk. 24:39 ), whereas ours is (supposedly) spiritual. What happens to the Biblically defined analogy between Christ's resurrection and ours in the hyper-preterist system?

6.) Anthropological Errors-
Sixth, there are numerous other theological and exegetical problems with a spiritual-only resurrection. For one thing, the hyper-preterist view tends to diminish the significance of the somatic implications of sin: Adam's sin had physical effects, as well as judicial and spiritual effects; where are these taken care of in the hyper-preterist system? Death's implications are not just judicial and spiritual, but also physical ( Gen. 3:14, 19; Rom. 6:23 ). If Christians now are fulfilling the resurrection expectation of Scripture, then the gnostics of the early Christian centuries were correct! The physical world seems to be superfluous, in the hyper-preterist viewpoint. The anthropology of hyper-preterism is defective in this, not allowing the theological significance of the body/soul nature of man ( Gen. 2:7 ). This can also have implications for the person of Christ and the reality of his humanity.

7.) Piercing Questions-
Seventh, regarding the teaching of Christ and the Apostles, we must wonder why Paul was mocked by the Greeks in Acts 17 for believing in the resurrection, if it were not a physical reality. We must wonder why Paul aligned himself with the Pharisees on the issue of the resurrection ( Ac. 23:6-9; 24:15, 21). We must wonder why we Christians still marry and are given in marriage, since Christ said in the resurrection we will not marry ( Lk. 20:35 ). We must wonder why the apostles never corrected the widespread notion of a physical resurrection, which was so current in Judaism (cf. Josephus, Talmud, etc.). We must wonder why we "resurrected" Christians must yet die; why should we not leave this world like Enoch and Elijah? Furthermore, where and what is the resurrection of the lost ( Jn. 5; Rev. 20 )? Paul considered Hymenæus and Philetus as having made ship-wreck of men's faith by saying the resurrection is past ( 2 Tim. 2:17-18 ). A wrong view of the resurrection is a serious matter to Paul.

8.) Effects of the Resurrection-
Eighth, practically I wonder on the hyper-preterist view what the difference our resurrection makes in this life? We get ill and are weak on the same scale as those prior to the A. D. 70 resurrection. Did this glorious resurrection of the "spiritual body" have no impact on our present condition? A hyper-preterist analysis might leave us to expect that Paul looked to A. D. 70 as an agent of relief from the groanings and the temptations of the flesh ( Rom. 7:25 ), yet we still have such -- despite the supposed resurrection.

9.) Christology Implications-
Ninth, Acts 1 clearly defines Christ's second Advent in terms of his ascension, which was physical and visible. For example, in Acts 1:8-11 Luke is careful to say the disciples were "beholding" him as he ascended; he was received "from the eyes of them" (v. 9b); they were "gazing" as he was "going" ( v. 10); they were "looking" ( v. 11); they "beheld" ( v. 11). Clearly his ascension was a visible and glorious phenomenon involving his tangible resurrected body. And there was an actual visible cloud associated with it ( v. 10). The angelic messengers resolutely declare "this same Jesus" (i.e., the Jesus they knew for over three years, who is now in a tangible resurrected body) will "so come in like manner as you saw him go into heaven" ( v. 11). The Greek on tropon literally means "what manner." The Greek phrase "never indicates mere certainty or vague resemblance; but wherever it occurs in the New Testament, denotes identity of mode or manner" (A. Alexander, Acts, ad loc.). Consequently, we have express Biblical warrant to expect a visible, bodily, glorious return of Christ paralleling in kind the ascension. The hyper-preterist position goes contrary to this clear teaching of Scripture.

10.) A Brief Millennium-
Tenth, if A. D. 70 ends the Messianic reign of Christ (cf. the hyper-preterist view of 1 Cor. 15:24, 28), then the glorious Messianic era prophesied throughout the Old Testament is reduced to a forty-year interregnum, whereas by all accounts it is a lengthy, glorious era. A problem with premillennialism is that it reduces Christ's reign to 1000 literal years; hyper-preterism reduces it further to forty years! The prophetical expressions of the kingdom tend to speak of an enormous period of time, even employing terms that are frequently used of eternity. Does Christ's kingdom parallel David's so that it only lasts for the same time frame?

11.) History and Church Errors-
Eleventh, hyper-preterists eternalize time, by allowing history to continue forever. This not only goes against express statements of Scripture, but also has God dealing with a universe in which sin will dwell forever and ever and ever. There is no final conclusion to the matter of man's rebellion; there is no final reckoning with sin. Christ tells us that the judgment will be against rebels in their bodies, not "spiritual" bodies ( Mt. 10:28 ). The hyper-preterist system does not reach back far enough (to the Fall and the curse on the physical world) to be able to understand the significance of redemption as it moves to a final, conclusive consummation, ridding the cursed world of sin. The full failure of the First Adam must be overcome by the full success of the Second Adam.

12.) Ecclesiastical Labor Twelfth, hyper-preterism has serious negative implications for ecclesiastical labor. Is the Great Commission delimited to the pre-A. D. 70 era, due to the interpretation of "the end" by hyper-preterists ( Mt. 28:20 )? Is the Lord's Supper superfluous today, having been fulfilled in Christ's (alleged) Second Advent in A. D. 70 ( 1 Cor. 11:26 )?

Kenneth L. Gentry holds several degrees in theology, including a Th.D. from Whitefield Seminary. He is pastor of Reedy River Presbyterian Church in Conestee, South Carolina, and has written several books and numerous essays. He can be contacted at 46 Main St., Conestee, SC 29636 or KennethGentry@CompuServe.COM

http://www.reformed.org/eschaton/index.html?mainframe=/eschaton/gentry_preterism.html