Ed Stevens: Literalism will Solve ALL OUR PROBLEMS

Let see, Stevens appeals to a literal interpretation . . . at yet the only thing MOST Preterists take LITERALLY are the time statements. LOL. Stevens is walking a very tight rope with this one. Especially when you begin to list every single thing that Preterists DON'T TAKE LITERALLY. Ironically, he claims the bible MUST BE taken literal to solve all our eschatological problems. And the funny thing is he tries SO HARD to make SPIRITUAL THINGS LITERALLY FULFILLED. WHAT?

Watch how he stumbles over his own words. Yet he only claims his literal approach when it is convenient to the audience he is addressing. WHAT AN "APE-EEEEE" THEOLOGY!!!!!!!!!!!

Ed Stevens "As we go further in our studies of redemption, we will notice how a literal interpretation of Genesis, along with the appropriate applications of typology, will solve all of the difficult eschatological problems which are encountered at the other end of the Bible." Sword & Plow Vol. X, No. 2 – February 2008

Ed Stevens also states "They WERE fulfilled in the first century. Some of them were physically-literally fulfilled in the physical events surrounding the destruction of Jerusalem, others were fulfilled in the heavenly realm where the departed spirits were raised out of Hades and gathered into the Kingdom. But, whether physically or heavenly, the events actually, literally occurred and were fulfilled. "

If you thought that previous quote was funny, check out how he completely goes the opposite direction.

Stevens says
"Although there are times when the “literal” interpretation for parts of Revelation seems to fit well with the facts of history, Chilton shows that often it is more appropriate to interpret Scripture “spiritually.” This not only makes sense, but it avoids the pitfall of a woodenly literal, (and often ridiculous) interpretation."
preterist.org/articles/days_of_vengeance.asp

Or THIS
Ed Stevens "Others have proposed a resurrection of the dead in the heavenly realm with visible signs being given in the physical realm, and say that the rapture is just another description of the invisible “gathering” into the presence of God at AD 70. I would tend to favor this later view (MEANING NOT LITERAL), although Russell and Terry’s idea cannot be lightly dismissed."
preterist.org/articles-old/gentry/anthropological_errors.htm

Ed Stevens "The least that can be said is that the Bible presents the NATURE of resurrection in a somewhat ambiguous manner, if not in a spiritual manner. The resurrection in 1 Cor. 15 can be and has certainly been interpreted in several different figurative and literal ways.
preterist.org/articles/what_if_the_creeds_are_wrong.asp

Ed Stevens "Bible prophecy can be understood, but Futurist views have fallen far short for many reasons: their extreme physical/literalizing approach, their seeming inability to distinguish between figurative and literal language, and their failure to properly take into account the historical-grammatical-cultural context of the prophecies (specifically what they meant to their original audience). Even the most difficult prophetic passage comes alive when approached properly. It is time to look at some alternatives, and the Preterist view is a great place to start."
preterist.org/whatispreterism.asp

Also NOTE: Ed Stevens allows articles on his site which are specifically "NOT LITERAL." Daniel E. Harden "True, I argue that Jesus "came" in A.D. 70 AND that he is coming at the end of history in the Second Advent. However, A.D. 70 involves only a METAPHORICAL coming. I do not believe that he literally moved out of heaven at all. The language of "coming" used in A.D. 70 passages are literary devices portraying the divine providence; the "coming" of the creeds refers to a literal, bodily coming." preterist.org/articles/heretic.asp

A recent article I found shows the frustration of how Preterist try to spiritualize everything into a 70AD box. Yet Stevens "a letter based man" uses literalism as his saving grace. How appropriate for the situation.

Randy: 1) They have to look right at passages of Scripture that clearly and plainly show the church will be caught up into the clouds, admit the word "rapture" means "caught up", then boldly state "there is no rapture". Then they have to resort to ridiculous arguments about the use of the word "air", suggesting it can only refer to the air within ten feet of the ground, that "clouds" could mean ground "fog", etc.

2) They have to look right at passages like 1 Corinthians 15 (where it repeatedly states the body which is sown, is the one which is raised, and calls people a fool for not observing that something has to die before it can be made alive), Luke 24:39 (where it shows Christ's resurrected body had flesh and bones), and Philippians 3:21, (where it says the "vile" body in which we die, is the one which will God will "change", and that it will be changed to the likeness of Christ's glorious body (that had flesh and bones)), then boldly deny the body which dies is the one which is resurrected, claiming the vile body really remains just as it is, corrupting in the grave, while a second, spiritual body (which never died in the first place) was some how raised from the dead!

Then they pretend like we don't acknowledge any spiritual resurrection, but are only concerned about the body, when it's obvious people like the Corinthians were already spiritually resurrected from the dead (Eph. 2:1ff.), yet still hoped for the resurrection of their body!

3) They have to look right at Romans 11:25-26, where it says the deliverer will come out of Zion when the fulness of the Gentiles "has come in" (past), admit Gentiles are still coming in for salvation, then conclude it must therefore be talking about the full number of Gentiles (a "glass" of fulness) that would come in by A.D. 70! Talk about working your way backwards from a desired conclusion, just to hang on to your favorite doctrine!

4) They have to look right at the context of 2 Peter 3, where it plainly identifies the heavens and earth which will be destroyed by fire, as the ones which were made by God, that consist of land rising out of water, and which were previously destroyed by a flood, then conclude it wasn't really talking about the destruction of this physical earth, but of some spiritual principle. To do this, they go back to Leviticus, or any other place in the Bible, where the word "heaven" or "earth", can possibly be understood in a figurative sense, then try to impose this exclusive meaning on 2 Peter 3, as if people won't notice the context of that passage.

Why? Why are preterists FORCED to make up such blatant, ridiculous, and obvious lies, while they are looking right at the passages they contradict?

Simple:
NONE OF THESE THINGS HAPPENED IN A.D. 70! If they allow the Bible to mean what it clearly states, their whole system of lies comes crashing to the ground!

http://www.pulpitfire.net/forum/index.php?topic=31.msg31;topicseen

Jan Markell "There are "Full Preterists" and "Partial Preterists." Partial Preterists actually consider much of what Full Preterists teach to be heretical. A Full Preterist says that Jesus returned "in spirit" in 70 AD and NOTHING is future. Good-bye "blessed Hope." We're in "the New Heavens and New Earth" right now and Satan is bound. But to Full and Partial Preterists, hardly anything is taken literally--most all is allegorical or symbolic, particularly the entire book of Revelation. To all Preterists, the Olivet Discourse is not about the coming of our Lord but about the destruction of Jerusalem."
therefinersfire.org/preterism.htm

http://preteristheresy.blogspot.com/2008/01/ed-stevens-literalism-will-solve-all.html

Preterism Suffers from Inattentional Blindness PART2

"When attention is diverted to another object or task (historical events of 70AD), observers often fail to perceive an unexpected object (the true spiritual pattern), even if it appears at fixation—a phenomenon termed inattentional blindness"

Is this not exactly how God has always ordained outward manifestations? Such as the serpent in the wilderness, or the law itself? Which, due to inattentional blindness, became the object of veneration in itself. Instead of being used as sign pointing to the TRUE object of worship.
___________________________
Count every " F" in the following text:

FINISHED FILES ARE THE RE
SULT OF YEARS OF SCIENTI
FIC STUDY COMBINED WITH
THE EXPERIENCE OF YEARS...

HOW MANY DO YOU SEE?
___________________________

To see Part 1 click here. . .
http://preteristheresy.blogspot.com/2008/01/full-preterism-suffers-from.html

http://preteristheresy.blogspot.com/2008/01/preterism-suffers-from-inattentional.html

Preterism: Covenant Confusion

Preterists seem to confuse when the NEW begins and the OLD ends. Typical Full/Hyper Pretersts say the Old Covenant started to end in 30AD, but didn't REALLY end until 70AD. And The New Covenant started to start in 30AD, but didn't REALLY start until 70AD.

So when according to their view does the Covenants really end and start? The answer is AD70.

If they say that the NEW really started in 30AD then you have to say that the OLD really ended then too.

i.e. if the "starting to start" is good enough to be considered for the start of the new, why isn't the "starting to end" good enough for the end of the old?

If the START of the start is THE START, then why isn't the start of THE END the end? Confusing, we know.

"it is often claimed that the new covenant began in ad30.. at its inception. Yet they say that the Old Covenant ended in AD70, despite its inception in AD30. This claim that the New Covenant began in AD30 is suprising, given the fact that they claim that the New Covenant "Age to Come" didn't come until AD70. How can you have the New Covenant Before the New Covenant Age?

But when, exactly, does the New Covenant start? In this quote from a full preterist ministry, we are given the answer : AD70

New Earth Christian Studies - "The Christians of the time were in a unique position: They were living not just between covenants, but in the end times of the Old Covenant which coincided with the beginning of the New." (God's Promises Fulfilled)

But, wait a minute! Earlier in that quote this ministry tells us:

"If they were looking forward to something, waiting eagerly for it, then they did not yet possess it in its fullness. And yet, there was always a sense in which they already owned it. They had the down payment. It was not that the New Covenant had not yet begun: It had, but it was not in full effect, until the Old Covenant was utterly destroyed." (God's Promises Fulfilled)

Here we have it again.

A. Preston: The Church Was Not Established at Pentecost
Don Preston "A key point of controversy surrounding the Preterist view of eschatology is the contention that the church/kingdom was not fully established on Pentecost but was in a state of incompletion until the Old World was taken out of the way in A.D.70.

B. Preston: The Church Was Established at Pentecost
Don Preston "We are not here arguing that the kingdom was not established on Pentecost. We do aver it was established in infancy." (An Airtight Argument)

So, when did the New Covenant start? In this ONE PARAGRAPH it is BOTH ad30 and ad70!!

How does this present a consistant system if indeed they want to draw an imaginary historical line in the sand?

Hyper-Preterists want to say that the NEW started in 30AD. And co-existed with the OLD, which they claim didn't end until AD70. Yet they also want to say that the New Covenant “Age to Come” didn't start until AD70!

So, the only real thing Preterists can consistently say is that the NEW didn't REALLY start until 70AD. Just like that being when the OLD REALLY passed away. If the NEW, did not begin until 70AD, how is it that the Paul was in the new covenant before the new covenant age?

So which is it, AD30 or AD70 !? Can't be both! Or is there a THIRD AGE ("This Age to Come") !? You can't say that Christians had the age to come before the world at large because they were still expecting eternal life!

http://www.preteristarchive.com/Hyper/Watchdog/defining-hyper_full.html

http://preteristheresy.blogspot.com/2008/01/preterism-covenant-confusion.html

Nobody Needs to be Resurrected Past AD70?

Nobody Needs to be Resurrected Past AD70. ALL HAVE BEEN BORN IN GOD'S PRESENCE. Can you say Universalism? This is the danger of an assumed 70AD line.

Hidden Manna Forum Post:
August 5th AD 70 is when I see that the figurative 1000 years had ended and the New Heaven and Earth began and second death kicked in replacing Adam;s first death making all things new. People born after August 5th AD 70 no longer needed to be resurrected into God’s presence because all have been born in God’s presence because the tabernacle or temple no longer stands.
newjerusalemministriesboards.com/showthread.php?p=20003#post20003

http://preteristheresy.blogspot.com/2008/01/nobody-needs-to-be-resurrected-past.html

The Old and New ENDED at 70AD???

Some Preterists don't even know what they are saying. Not only did the old end in 70AD but now we have people who believe the NEW ended too. Insane! A assumed line which clearly distorts reality.

Donald Hochner: Forum Post
I don't think the old covenant ceased at the cross of Christ. It was done at the destruction of Jerusalem. After the cross, its began to fade away as we've seen in the book of Hebrews. The new covenant began on the Day of Pentecost which the saints were filled with the holy spirit and Christ was their King. Now, this may be an interesting part, the judgment began at 66 AD when the saints were "raised" and "received" the thrones of kingdom with the parousia of Christ at that time, not 70 AD yet. See Rev. 11:15-19; Matt. 19:28; and Luke 22:30. The old covenant and the new covenant were overlaping during 30-70 AD. It seems that BOTH WERE ENDED at 70 AD. When all things (the judgment, the enemies, the resurrection, the kingdom, the death, the covenants, and the Law) that were subjected to him, he delivered up to his God (Yahweh) the Father which He may be all in all.

http://newjerusalemministriesboards.com/showthread.php?p=19198#post19198

http://preteristheresy.blogspot.com/2008/01/old-and-new-ended-at-70ad.html

Don Preston: The BLIND Leading the SIGHTED

This type of BOGUS rhetoric is how Preterism is "filling up the measure of their fathers". They are blind to this because they they only see the bible in a first century context. Their ferocious and dogmatic claims that others who don't see their views, are blind, and unfaithful to the word is divisive and uncalled for. Like Children, Preterists call those who don't believe their own letter based, narrow minded system, misguided fools, who believe God lied. Yet, they are the ones who are blind for failing to see the true nature of who Jesus is referencing which is directed towards those OUTSIDE OF CHRIST, THOSE WHO ARE EARTHLY, THOSE AFTER LIVE AFTER THE FLESH. Preterism is the destroyer of faith in the eyes of many Christians. It not only places spiritual things as past events, but creates a new kind of Christianity (a post 70AD period) that is separate and apart from that of the first century generation. No wonder Preterism has the natural tendency to destroy the faith of many, and result in absolute confusion on what things apply and what things don't. The BIBLE is made into a CLOSED BOOK rather than a OPEN BOOK which REVEALS CHRIST transforming work in our lives.

Don Preston "Yet, today, the majority of Christianity denies that the Day of the Lord was in A.D. 70. Their eyes did not see what their ears are hearing! They are in fact making the very same mistake as the Jews who rejected Jesus as king, because, after all, their eyes were not seeing what their ears were hearing about this "king Jesus!" Is it not time to open the eyes of faith, to see the reality of what occurred, right on time, in A.D. 70?"

Right Don! Eyes of faith really means seeing things that are really just historical events. Here is an example of Don's Spiritual "SOMETHINGS". In Don's mind "eyes of faith" are really about reading A.D. 70 into every prophetic passage, when the Bible gives NO SCRIPTURE which says IT HAPPENED. So the "eyes of faith" to a Preterist is believing an assumption or making a deduction. The eyes of faith are NOT ABOUT a particular spin on the bible, but opening the eyes of our heart to see Jesus Christ. Yet another example of how FP takes the focus off of Jesus.

"As Jesus stood in the Temple at Jerusalem, he castigated the Jews for their internecine history of killing the prophets (Matthew 23:29f). He said they had killed all the prophets sent to them, and were going to kill the prophets that he was about to send. In doing so, they would fill up the measure of their father’s guilt, and be judged in that generation (Matthew 23:34f)."

It is "Inattentional Blindness" to believe Jesus only has the first century generation in mind, and is not characterizing all men outside of Christ. Don mistakenly sees this passage as solely pertaining to those in the first century. He misses the fact that the heart of Preterism is just as EVIL, and is also right in the crosshairs of what Jesus is saying. Jesus was clearly referring to those self-righteous and natural men who were not of him. These were the one who did as their fathers did. Jesus is talking JUST AS MUCH TO PRETERISTS who miss the weightier matters and stumble over the small things. This judgment of "this generation" was pointing directly to those not of God, who are indeed fleshly, natural minded men. And that judgment was near to them, as it is to all men, who fail to put on Christ.

Don Preston "If the kingdom and the resurrection are same time events, and if the coming of the kingdom was an unseen event, that means that the resurrection was an unseen event! Paul said, when discussing the resurrection: "We do not look on the things that are seen, but the things that are unseen." (2 Corinthians 4:16f)."

Don continues making unseen events spiritual somethings in 70AD. As if this was a line where OLD THINGS PASSED AWAY, and ALL THINGS BECAME NEW. Historical events in 70AD, did not make you a new man, did not place you in a new covenant with God, did not place you in the New Heavens and Earth where righteousness dwells, did not make you worthy to obtain the coming age. If it did ALL MEN would be in it, and that is nothing more than UNIVERSALISM. It is a BOGUS theology. A outward external system designed to mislead the masses. Making things spiritual in 70AD, does not fix the problem with removing our old man, nor does it automatically allow us to put on the new man. http://preteristheresy.blogspot.com/2008/01/has-your-house-been-made-desolate-by.html

eschatology.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=589&Itemid=61

For quotes on how Preterists decieve their opponents, please see the link below. Their natural thinking tells them that THEY are RIGHT, or God is a LIAR. And these are SONS of GOD?
http://preteristheresy.blogspot.com/2008/01/jesus-had-to-fulfill-by-letter.html

http://preteristheresy.blogspot.com/2008/01/don-preston-blind-leading-sighted.html
eschatology.org eschatology Don K Pretson

The Annoyance of Preterism

"The chief dangers to Christianity do not come from the anti-Christian systems...It is corrupt form of Christianity itself which menace from time to time the life of Christianity" --B.B. Warfield Selected Shorter Writings of Benjamin B. Warfield pg 665-66

"Hyper-Preterism is a small but active, militant, & growing theological movement. (LOL, NOT ANYMORE) Its enthusiastic adherents loudly demand that those who disagree with them stop their full-time labors & deal with all their questions -- or die the death of a thousand emails." --K. Gentry WSTTB pg 4

"In an effort to operate within orthodox churches (their second-leading mission field after the Internet), hyper-preterists urge the well-known humanist shibboleth of 'tolerance'."
(MEANWHILE, THEY ARE AT EACH OTHERS' THROATS!) --K Gentry WSTTB pg 10

http://preteristheresy.blogspot.com/2008/01/annoyance-of-preterism.html

Preterism: Take a big WIFF of that smell

Roderick Edwards
"Full Preterist adherents have been bombarding me with accusations of having no “exegetical” dispute with FP & only having issues with a “splinter-group” of Full Preterists. They err in this accusation on three fronts. One, I have some very specific exegetical disputes with FP of which I will detail in this article. Two, the reason I have focused on the flawed-character issues rampant in FP is because just like the noxious fumes, the flawed-character issues of FP acts as the “odor” that should warn us there is something wrong. Third, the problem ISN'T with mere “splinter-groups” within FP but with the main & most vocal advocates."
http://unpreterist.blogspot.com/2008/01/faulty-foundation-of-full-preterism.html

And they know it too, and get all petty when you point it out. For proof of these charges, take a look at this . . .
http://blog.planetpreterist.com/index.php?itemid=1615.

This link will prove Rod's comments right. If, after reading this, you do not want to hang out with these people, then consider it settled. Would you show this interaction to a non-believer as proof of Christian morals?

So I guess the ONLY thing holding Preterists together is a common mistaken theology.. It's so uplifting.

http://preteristheresy.blogspot.com/2008/01/preterism-take-big-wiff-of-that-smell.html

Preterist Chart: Things that END & BEGIN in 70AD

The chart by Ed Stevens below seems to display his Universalistic system that seems to fill the halls of the Preterist house. This is by far the worst chart I have seen, which displays so many assumptions . . . where to begin??? There are many things that should be observed from the chart below. Stevens confuses the spiritual things in a historic timeline fashion, and makes the assumption that the spiritual things are really historical SOMETHINGS. This is a RED FLAG on identifying a backward system which makes the COPIES the PATTERN. Instead they seeing the PATTERN (which is really the new life we have in Christ See Philippians 3:17) and call them applications. Natural Men will always spew forth their Natural Thinking!

If you need to know what assumptions Preterism uses to make their case, start with the things they say ended or began in 70AD. Then ask them to give you one verse that says it happened!!!! If they can not, then understand that 70AD is NOT the true focal point.

Assumptions as a result of 70AD BASED on this Chart.
1.) The Millennium Ends
2.) The Resurrection Ends
3.) Judgment ends
4.) All men are restored to the Presence of God, since that which was lost has now been restored.
5.) Satan is cast into the lake of fire, Satan Crushed.
6.) Hadean death (separation from God's fellowship and presence) removed.
6.) Eternal Life given to ALL in the New Heavens and Earth (a post 70AD period?).
7.) The "present age" ended. Those surviving 70AD were found worthy?
8.) "all in all" .. healing of nations in 70AD
9.) Temple typology COMPLETELY fulfilled. i.e. NO reference to today. COMPLETELY fulfilled. 10.) "Jerusalem Destroyed" = "Presence of God Restored" ? ? ?"

Jesus tells folks in Hades what He is doing" GAG
"Man captive in a conscious waiting state just like the PARABLE teaches." GAG

OH YES, I almost forgot . . .
Ed Stevens
"When a conflict develops between the creed and Scripture, where should our allegiance rest? (sola scriptura)"

preterist.org/articles-old/gentry/appendix_2.htm

http://preteristheresy.blogspot.com/2008/01/preterist-chart-things-that-end-begin.html

Full/Hyper-Preterism and Universalism

Todd Dennis
"After ten years of dedicated searching, the earliest roots of Full Preterism have revealed themselves so far in the writings of American Universalists. Universalists tend to believe that atonement is received by all in Jesus Christ regardless of one's state of belief. Universalist Preterism specifically focuses on the destruction of Jerusalem in AD70 as being the exhaustion of God's judgment, AND also being a fundamental proof of the universality of the world's presence in the "New Heavens and Earth" and "The Age About to Come" ever since that time. "

preteristarchive.com/Universalism/index.html

http://preteristheresy.blogspot.com/2008/01/hyper-preterism.html

PRET-IDEALISM IS VINDICATED!!!!!!!!

Recent Blog Exchange: Tami Jelinek to Michael Bennett
"Mike, it's been awhile since we've dialogued about this stuff. Just wondering if you are still dug in with the view that the new heavens and the new earth is universal, and that the unregenerate are in it? It has everything of course to do with how you read the "heaven and the earth" in early Genesis. (Not to mention that it is a huge reason for the PI backlash against full preterism. I have to say if it were true that the NH/NE is universal, their argument that full preterism demands universalism has some validity.)"

blog.planetpreterist.com/index.php?itemid=1615

http://preteristheresy.blogspot.com/2008/01/preterist-idealism-is-vindicated.html

The New Testament History as a Parable of Our Transformation in Christ

Click on image to enlarge

(Phil. 3:17-20) Brethren, join in following my example, and observe those who walk according to the pattern you have in us. For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ, whose end is destruction, whose god is their appetite, and whose glory is in their shame, who set their minds on earthly things. For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.

http://preteristheresy.blogspot.com/2008/01/new-testament-history-as-parable-of-our.html

Thanks to ALL who helped develop this chart. It is truely a blessing to gain a better understaning of victory that we are recieving in Christ. There is a lot of power in understanding this amazing PARABLE which shadows our transformation.

Albert Einstein: Theory of Relativity

http://preteristheresy.blogspot.com/2008/01/albert-einstein-theory-of-relativity.html

Has your house been made desolate by theology?

Look at this picture VERY carefully. According to some Preterists, this is the point in time that all things changed. The transition from old to new occurred at this exact moment. Because of this event, your sin is now completely removed. This historical event placed you in the New Covenant, the New Age, in the New Heavens and Earth (NEW JERUSALEM?, CHURCH?) and becuase of this you NOW have salvation. This is WHEN Satan was completely crushed, and thrown into the lake of fire!! From this point in history onward, all now share in the blessing of having no earthly temple but spiritually of course, we are in Heaven now. Don't worry about your sin problem. Just know it has been taken care of.

CONGRATULATIONS! You have finished you race. Well Done, Good and Faithful Servant. Your VICTORY was won in 70AD!!! You don't have to wait for anything. Just think, you don't even need to run anymore. That was ONLY for that generation!!! Thank God, he saved us from having to do anything. He has already made us WORTHY to enter that age!

http://preteristheresy.blogspot.com/2008/01/has-your-house-been-made-desolate-by.html

FOR MORE INFORMATION ON "Inattentional Blindness" PLEASE SEE THE FOLLOWING :
http://preteristheresy.blogspot.com/2008/01/full-preterism-suffers-from.html

The HISTORICAL Transition from Old to New

BE VERY CAREFUL WHEN PRETERISTS BEGAN USING THE WORD THEREFORE, BECAUSE YOU KNOW A HUGE ASSUMPTION IS COMING.


Donny : The fulfillment is the entrance of Gentiles into the new covenant and full establishment of the new covenant. The new covenant, however, could not be fully established until the old covenant (including the Temple) was destroyed. Thus we find a 40 year transition period. This explains the "already, but not yet" attitude of Paul and other writers. Salvation was there, but not there. Righteousness was there, but not there. The New Covenant had been inaugurated, but not fully founded and culminated.


"Paul cites Isaiah 11:10 (Romans 15:12) speaking of the spread of the gospel to the Gentiles and as a present reality. Isaiah 11:10 is the ending of a passage about the new heavens and new earth (Isaiah 11:6; cf. Isaiah 65:17-25), therefore the new heavens and new earth were a present reality to Paul. In Revelation 21:1, the new heavens and new earth are spoken of as coming in as the old heavens and old earth fade away (cf. Hebrews 8:13). However, final judgment is shown as happening as the old heavens and old earth fade away, also (Revelation 20:11). Therefore, final judgment must be a past event. If final judgment is a past event, then death and Satan have been defeated and conquered (Revelation 20:10, 14). If this is a hard idea to swallow, consider that this is repeated in the gospels and epistles (Genesis 3:15; Matthew 12:28-29; Luke 10:18; John 11:25-26; 12:31; Romans 5; 16:20; Hebrews 2:14; 1 John 3:8; Revelation 12:9-11). It also echoed in 1 Corinthians 15:54-55, which states that the sting of death sin and the power of sin is the law. Paul repeatedly claims that we have been released from the Law and no longer under it (Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3; Galatians 3:13, 24-25), therefore the power of sin is gone. If the power of sin is gone, then the sting of death is gone and death is conquered. Although the prophecy states that there will be no death, merely reading Isaiah 65 will reveal that there is death. Death is conquered in that it no longer hurts us in light of Christ (John 11:25-26). Therefore, if death is conquered, both the millennial reign (1 Corinthians 15:24-26) and the resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:50-58) have happened. Further proof of this is found in the fact that New Jerusalem (Revelation 21) is the church. Notice that both are the bride of Christ (Ephesians 5; Revelation 21:2) and both are founded on the apostles (Ephesians 2:20; Revelation 21:14). Since Christ is obviously not a polygamist, New Jerusalem must refer to the church. We can also see that the new heavens and new earth also are images of the church because both New Jerusalem and the new heavens and new earth involve no mourning or crying (Isaiah 65:19; Revelation 21:4). In Revelation 21:4, death is shown to be gone. Because of Christ, we have life and death is defeated with no power over us."



http://www.christianguitar.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-37588.html

Jean Cooke "Abstract Noun"

The term that explains why FP screws up so badly on identifying things in the bible is called "Abstract Nouns". They are infamous in jewish writings. And can admit multiple meanings, depending on one's perspective.

Jean Cooke: The scriptures do not deal with historical chronology. That was not their forte. They use multiple types to explain what is best described as an abstract noun – a description of the quality of characteristics in life.

The writers delineated history to show the spiritual application with qualities being best described as abstract nouns. The Jerusalem that the Romans destroyed had rejected the antitypical lamb. Jerusalem had long abnegated the Oracles of God. The tenets of Judaism were literalised by the Pharisees and implemented by the Sadducees, persecuting the Messianic Body. The significance of the tenets had lapsed. They were described as having become diverse and stranged doctrines. The writers to the Hebrews said, “Be not carried about with divers and strong doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.” Heb. 13:9.

It is difficult to grasp that qualities are expressed by abstract nouns, that Biblical history is not chronological history. Antitypes using types point always to the elevated. Later the types recur, and again these qualities are abstract, perceived and just as real as former applications. These applications are seen working towards archetypes.

The Hebraic writings are directed at the height, breadth and, depth of the Spirit. The world that came to an end in the scriptural picture in the days of the Messianic Body was the world of the tenets of Judaism. The keeping of the Levitical laws, “a figure for the time then present” could not “save” anyone. The keeping of the strict laws and rituals disabled the creative element of society.

The form of spiritual antitypes are abstract but very real, they are genuine qualities of character. You see, spiritual things are intangible, you cannot put your finger on them literally. It is up to you to enliven them. The biblical writers did not pin any of their tutorial to a single historical chronological event, and each event pictured, portrayed the spiritual, through time – ever present. It can therefore be said that chronological history pertains to the flesh, and it is also very real in each age.

The narratives spelling out the success of transcendence and the downfall of mediocrity fill the pages of the Bible. An important point is that the Hebraic scripture is based on the days of the Jewish sacred year and do not align with the calendars. The Hebraic scripture pointed to the divine being played out alongside the secular. It is important to keep this methodology in mind when following the pathway bequeathed to us. Scriptural writers appealed to all sides of society as they sought genuine improvement.

For example, the Book of Daniel is full of numbers of days. They are all based on sanctuary or ceremonial in the sacred year over a seven-year-period. Many have erroneously calculated these days and endeavored to terminate them on a current calendar or an historical record. This is to miss the point.

Spiritual things are spiritually discerned – see 1 Cor. 2:14. And what are spiritual things you may well ask? It is a question each of us individually must strive to answer. It is like trying to interpret the statement, “Walk in the Spirit and ye shall not fufil the lust of the flesh…” see Gal. 5:13-26. Here you see liberty versus license, reflective of duality in the great controversy. Rom. 8 is an excellent chapter on the Spirit and the flesh and is a good starting point.
http://debunkingchristianitysydney.blogspot.com/2007/10/q.html

http://preteristheresy.blogspot.com/2008/01/jean-cooke-abstract-noun.html

The challenge before us!

Tim Berners-Lee, author of the first version of HTML and W3C Director, says in the press release, "To integrate the input of so many people is hard work, as is the challenge of balancing stability with innovation, pragmatism with idealism."

http://blog.wired.com/monkeybites/2008/01/the-html-5-draf.html

http://preteristheresy.blogspot.com/2008/01/challenge-before-us.html

John Riffe: Preterism- Forcing Fulfillment Model

AMEN!!!!!!!!

John Riffe "It really is unwise to confuse the two dimensions of "death" as well as to confuse the two dimensions of "resurrection" in the increasingly awkward effort to force all fulfillment of Scripture by 70AD."

"The 30-70AD Millennium view that the resurrection that Paul and the Apostles looked forward to was the spiritual/covenantal life they already had via faith in Christ, is fatally flawed, (2 Tim 2:11-18 Phillippians 3:10-13). It leads directly to Universalism, the kind of preterist Universal Salvation that rallys around Max King aka “Comprehensive Grace” that goes "Beyond Salvation" as presented by Jesus and His Apostles in the New Testament record.

Let us remember that it was Hymenaeus & Philetus who were saying things like, "Since the 1st resurrection of the just that is already past was all about people "coming to spiritual/covenantal life" in Christ (Rev 20:4), the resurrection of the rest of the dead when Jesus comes back will be about everybody else "coming to spiritual/covenantal life" in Christ (Rev 20:5), too: nobody but the Devil is going to Hell!" (2 Tim 2:11-18 Phillippians 3:10-13). This is how 30-70AD Millennialism's Gnostic-style "spiritual/covenantal resurrection" leads directly to Universalism."

http://heavenlyjerusalem.net/?q=node/24

http://preteristheresy.blogspot.com/2008/01/john-riffe-preterism-forcing.html

Who am I?

http://preteristheresy.blogspot.com/2008/01/who-am-i.html

In football terms Preterism means "back up and punt"

DR. EDWARD HINDSON: Preterists insist they are defending the Bible by making its prophecies fulfilled in the past. That way, they can’t be accused of making false assumptions about the future. In other words, their interpretive methodology might be called: “back up and punt!” By confining predictive prophecy to a past fulfillment they eliminate any real need for eschatology. However, their fallacious reasoning and flimsy logic leaves them supporting a series of ridiculous conclusions that fly in the face of the whole history of biblical interpretation.
according2prophecy.org/Preterism.html

http://preteristheresy.blogspot.com/2008/01/in-football-terms-preterism-means-back.html

Don Preston "The Cross Incomplete Without AD70"

Don Preston
"The implication is evident: no second coming, no completed salvation. No completed salvation, no release from spiritual death. No release from spiritual death, no restoration to the "image" and "likeness of God." Each element of redemption depends on each other element for its effectiveness."

"The process (and ground) of taking away of sin undoubtedly began at the Cross, as Hebrews 9:26 affirms. It was not perfected and completed there, however."

eschatology.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=477&Itemid=61
eschatology.org eschatology Don K Pretson

http://preteristheresy.blogspot.com/2008/01/cross-incomplete-without-ad70.html

Jared Coleman: Why I hate the word 'preterist'

Jared Coleman "Lately I have come to really hate the word 'preterist' and I was cringing every time I saw it in the URL of my blog. . . First, it can be used in partisan ways and I am desperately trying to have a catholic (with a little "c") faith. Second, the word focuses on looking backward at a time when I am focused on looking forward (not without looking backward as well, of course). And third, while I still read many of the eschatological passages of scripture in a very similar (though in many cases not the same) way as others in that community, the language of the preterist community is woefully deficient and unless it changes it will never be able to project an adequate picture of the kingdom of God.

jaredcoleman.com/2007/01/why-delectatio-dei.html

http://preteristheresy.blogspot.com/2008/01/jared-coleman-why-i-hate-word-preterist.html

Preterist Chart: "An Assumed 70AD line" reveals their Universalism!!!!

This is a chart I recently found that presents the assumed 70AD line which places ALL MEN in the New Age. According to Preterists, the OLD AGE ended in AD 70. Which means those who are outside of Christ, who lived past AD 70 are now in the New Age, or New Heavens and Earth. This line they place in 70AD, means that those who our outside of Christ have been found WORTHY to enter that age. It also means that they have been allowed to enter that which righteousness dwells. Notice this chart shows that they believe SIN, LAW, DEATH, FEAR, EARTHLY TABERNACLE passed away in 70AD.

"Behold, I make all things new" and the funny thing is, they ADD "IN 70AD" to scripture. YET, the bible tells us that it is only "IN CHRIST" that all are made new.

Click here for a larger view

http://preteristheresy.blogspot.com/2008/01/preterist-chart-assumed-70ad-line.html

Tim King: Serious Motorcycle Accident

A few days ago Tim and Gwynne King were touring the Pacific Northwest on their motorcycle. While heading home, they wanted to drive through Yellowstone National Park. A driver in a truck heading in the same direction as Tim and Gwynne pulled off the left-hand side of the road to get mail out of a box. The driver, then, made a 90 degree turn back across the road to enter a driveway. The driver didn’t see Tim and Gwynne, and an accident ensued.

Both Tim and Gwynne were taken to area hospitals. Gwynne has no broken bones and no internal injuries. She has severe road rash and has been released from the hospital. Tim’s injuries include road rash, broken ribs, a broken shoulder, a broken collar bone, and a punctured lung. Tim remains in the hospital, and hopes to be released soon.

planetpreterist.com/news-5343.html

Ed Stevens "Sola Scriptura" WHEN the Bible is Silent!

Ed Stevens
"When a conflict develops between the creed and Scripture, where should our allegiance rest? (sola scriptura)"

preterist.org/articles-old/gentry/appendix_2.htm

AND YET

Rodrock Edwards states "No words from Scripture will convince the deluded. Take for example that THERE IS NOT ONE VERSE IN ALL OF THE BIBLE THAT SAYS JESUS RETURNED IN AD70 — FP must deduce this & bring in para-biblical “evidence” YET you dare say we must provide you with Scripture refutation when your entire case is without ANY Scripture???"

"My “alternative” is to believe the Bible & go no further. I am not “deducing”. I am not “speculating”. I am not making things up to fill in appearent gaps. I am not the one with no leg to stand on here…it is the FP who must deduce, it is the FP who must speculate, it is the FP making things up to fill in gaps — be it with rapture theories or making Adam out to be just the first “covenant” man but not the first created human. THIS is the fruit of FP."

preterist.wordpress.com/2008/01/12/march-of-the-dont-believers/#comments

Larry Siegle
"I will freely admit that A.D. 70 is not mentioned EXPLICITLY even once in the Scriptures–from Genesis to Revelation."

preterist.wordpress.com/2008/01/19/truth-or-dare-responses-to-roderick-edwards/#comments

http://preteristheresy.blogspot.com/2008/01/ed-stevens-sola-scriptura-when-bible-is.html

Left Behind

Ed Stevens "In Second Peter, chapter 3, Peter says God was not hasty in bringing the then-imminent judgment upon that generation. He waited until the harvest was ripe before treading the winepress. I hope Max King’s suggestion (that the millennium was the period from 30 to 70 AD) is the correct one (it certainly sounds good). The term “thousand years” would then simply refer to the period of time while the kingdom was being built, before God came to judge His enemies. It was a time of completion."

preterist.org/articles/preteristQA.asp

http://preteristheresy.blogspot.com/2008/01/left-behind.html

A Backward Theology

(Philippians 3:13-14) Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

(Luke 17:32) "Remember Lot’s wife.

How you ever felt like running a race by looking backward? With so many preterist claiming victory is behind you (in 70AD), instead of ahead of you, it is no wonder they are having problems reaching their destination or attracting large crowds. And the sad part is, they wonder why others are not turning their heads and why they just don't understand the need to look backwards.

If you feel that at times your running into things, tripping up, remember it does not have to be this way. Paul gives clear instruction on what to do. LET GO of 70AD!! And if you heed his words, Jesus is standing at your finish line cheering you on with your crown in hand.

http://preteristheresy.blogspot.com/2008/01/backward-theology.html

Larry Siegle "Nothing else remains"

Larry Siegle "Even though preterism has transcended all denominational lines, there is a solid consensus among those who embrace the viewpoint that, (1) the coming (Parousia) of the Lord, (2) the resurrection of the dead and (3) the judgment occurred in those events related to the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, and that nothing else related to the fulfillment of Bible prophecy remains future to our time."

preterist.wordpress.com/2008/01/22/preterism-consistency-consensus-and-confusion/

http://preteristheresy.blogspot.com/2008/01/larry-siegle-nothing-else-remains.html

Dr. Dan Trotter Hymenaeus / Philetus Suffered from Hyper-Preterism

Dan Trotter: WHY IT IS PERFECTLY OK TO CALL HERETICAL PRETERISTS NAUGHTY NAMES
Let me quote the words of the inspired apostle: "and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place... (2 Tim 2:17,18a)" When I realized I had apostolic precedent, I immediately felt better about my rhetorical intemperance. In fact, what I said about heretical preterists was positively mild in comparison with what Paul said about the ancient hyperpreterists: he called them blasphemers (I Tim 1:20), he said they had rejected their faith (I Tim 1:19), they had rejected a good conscience (I Tim 1:19), they had shipwrecked their faith (I Tim 1:19), he handed them over to Satan (I Tim 1:20), he called them vain and profane babblers (II Tim 2:16), he said they were ungodly (II Tim 2:16), he said they had gone astray from the truth (II Tim 2:18), and he said that they were upsetting the faith of Christians (II Tim 2:18).

"This is how the heretical preterists argue that the disagreement between Paul and Hymenaeus was over the timing of the resurrection, not its nature. First, they point out (correctly) that Hymenaeus was not arguing that a physical resurrection had already occurred. If the argument were that, all Paul would have to do to refute it would be to point out that all the graves around them had bodies in them, therefore no physical resurrection had occurred. Nobody would be dumb enough to assert such an easily-refuted proposition, and no one would be dumb enough to believe it. Therefore, if Hymenaeus didn't believe that a physical resurrection had already occurred, he must have believed in something else, probably that a spiritual resurrection of some sort had occurred in the heavenlies, which is what the heretical preterists of today believe, and which is what hyperpreterists assert that Paul believed. So, if Hymenaeus believed in a spiritual resurrection, and Paul believed in a spiritual resurrection, Paul couldn't be upset with Hymenaeus over that, and therefore, he had to be upset only over the timing of the resurrection. "

"The heretical preterists often counter the assertion that they are Hymeneans by pointing out that, although they are claiming the resurrection has already come, as did the Hymeneans, they are different than the Hymeneans, in this one respect: the hyperpreterists are making their claim that the resurrection already happened POST- A.D. 70, whereas Hymenaeus and friends were making their identical claim PRE- A.D. 70. The hyperpreterists then say: see, Hymenaeus was wrong, because, indeed, when Hymenaeus made the claim, in fact, the resurrection hadn't occurred yet (because they made the claim pre- A.D. 70), but when we full preterists make the claim today, we are perfectly correct in saying the resurrection has already occurred, because it indeed has already occurred, in A.D. 70. This is typical of the slick rhetorical tricks heretical preterists like to use. The reader will notice that the logic I've given above pierces their buncombe. That the heretical preterists (given their premises) are right about the timing of the resurrection, and that the ancient Hymenaeans were wrong about the timing of the resurrection, is absolutely irrelevant to Paul' anger and condemnation of Hymenaeus and company. Paul could not have possibly gotten that upset over a few decades worth of difference in timing between himself and Hymenaeus. What he was upset about was that in saying that the resurrection had already come, Hymenaeus was also saying that there wasn't going to be another one, which sent Paul ballistic, which sends me ballistic, and which ought to get you pretty riled up, too. "

http://www.thingstocome.org/perfectly.htm

http://preteristheresy.blogspot.com/2008/01/dr-dan-trotter-hymenaeus-philetus.html

Also see related posts on this topic at:
http://preteristheresy.blogspot.com/search/label/Hymenaeus%20%2F%20Philetus

Full Preterism IS Hyper-Preterism

Todd Dennis: "When is Preterism taken too far? Is it possible to take fulfillment beyond the point of Scriptural warrant? At what point has the declaration of past fulfillment overstepped biblical bounds? Naturally, it depends on who you ask. For instance, strict Futurists would say that making AD70 the only fulfillment for any of the Olivet Discourse (as opposed to those events serving as a type of the future tribulation) would be taking fulfillment too far.

Historical preterists would say that declaring the parousia, great white throne judgment, and general resurrection to be strictly in the past crosses the line into hyper preterism -- and wouldn't the entirety of (non full-pret) Christianity throughout all ages agree at least that far? Many, in fact, would go much farther, declaring that anyone who taught that the coming, judgment and resurrection of the dead were past events are outside of the Christian faith altogether.

However, what makes the discussion even more interesting is that even full preterists believe that there is some point where fulfillment has been taken too far. A virtually unanimous example of this would include the declarations by certain full preterists that the gospel was only for the pre-AD70 era. (Less consensus is found on the issues of the cessation of baptism and the Lord's Supper.) First, then, there is no proper denying that there is such a thing as hyper preterism. Secondary is the issue of whether or not hyper preterism is worthy to be held in contempt. Another consideration is this: If such large segments of preterists are actually hyper preterists, then what is true preterism?"
___________________________________________________________
Jay Adams (2003) "Frost goes on to write, "If the Second Coming really did occur in A.D.70, does this damage the integrity of the church, he history and her claim to know the truth?" The (Orthodox Preterist) answer? Absolutely. The vast majority of biblical exegetes have clearly taught the doctrines that (Unorthodox Preterists) reject. If UPs are correct, it would mean that the Bible-believing church would have been deluded or deceived for most of its history, and Christians would have truly entertained a "misplaced hope." (Preterism: Orthodox or Unorthodox, pp. 2,3)

"Because UPs are right in many of their interpretations, and because in these they have good exegesis on their side, they have become cocky about the interpretation of other passages in which they show shoddy and forced exegesis to support untenable teachings." (Preterism: Orthodox or Unorthodox, p. 4)

Kenneth Gentry "("Hyper" Preterism)...goes too far by extending valid observations gathered from temporally confined judgment passages (texts including such delimitations as ‘soon’ and ‘at hand’) to passages that are not temporally constrained and that actually prophesy the future advent of Christ." (Tabletalk magazine, January 1999, p.56)

"Before I begin my analysis and critique, however, I must make very clear my orthodox convictions regarding biblical eschatology. I pause to do so because a new, unorthodox movement has arisen that confuses many Christians regarding orthodox preterism. This new movement largely arises from within Church of Christ (Campbellite) circles; indeed, the two main publishing sources of the movement are run by present or former Campbellites (though, like any good cult-like movement, it is widening its net and drawing followers from other sources). This movement asserts that A.D. 70 witnesses the fulfilling of ALL eschatological prophecy. This mutant form of preterism goes too far, for it denies a future Second Advent of Christ; a future, bodily resurrection of the dead; and other historic, orthodox doctrines of the Christian faith." (An Introductory Disclaimer)

"Unfortunately, a new gnosticism is infecting the church: hyper-preterism. One major feature of hyper-preterism is its denial of a future physical resurrection of the believer at the end of history. As we shall see, this contradicts a major result of the resurrection of Christ. Before I demonstrate this, I must briefly summarize the argument for Christ's physical resurrection, which is the effective cause of our own future resurrection. " (Christ's Resurrection and ours)

Kenneth L. Gentry Jr. "First, hyper-preterism is heterodox. It is outside the creedal orthodoxy of Christianity. No creed allows any second Advent in A. D. 70. No creed allows any other type of resurrection than a bodily one. Historic creeds speak of the universal, personal judgment of all men, not of a representative judgment in A. D. 70. It would be most remarkable if the entire church that came through A. D. 70 missed the proper understanding of the eschaton and did not realize its members had been resurrected! And that the next generations had no inkling of the great transformation that took place! Has the entire Christian church missed the basic contours of Christian eschatology for its first 1900 years?" (Brief Theologial Analysis of Hyper-Preterism)

Scott Hahn "I was originally attracted by Max King and J. S. Russell, but subsequently rejected their view that 70 AD exhaustively fulfills NT prophecy. Personally, I have come to conclude that the main error of "hyper-preterism" is based on the common failure to recognize the theological significance of the biblical (and ancient Jewish) view of Israel's temple as a "microcosm" (i.e., the cosmos in miniature), which implies that the cosmos itself was seen as a "macro-temple" (see Ps 104, Job 38). Accordingly, the divinely decreed destruction of the Jerusalem (microcosmic) temple was itself a typological event, one that foreshadows the future destruction of the cosmos (i.e., as macro-temple). The destruction of the Jerusalem temple is thus a true -- but partial -- fulfillment, which implies a partial non-fulfillment, thus pointing to a still greater fulfillment in the future, when the cosmos undergoes the same divinely decreed destruction as the Jerusalem temple. An integral interpretation of NT prophetic texts is rooted in the scriptural view of creation, set forth in terms of temple typology (see Hebrews 9:1-12). What happens to the temple must eventually happen to the cosmos; the resurrected body of Christ is the New Temple, which will be fully manifested in glory only when the old cosmos undergoes the same transformative judgement of God, thus bringing forth a New Creation -- which the Apocalypse rightly describes as the Divine Temple (Rev. 11:18ff) of the New Jerusalem (Rev. 21:22)." (comments, ca-anathema, 2003)

Tommy Ice "EXTREME preterists, or consistent preterists, as they prefer to be known as, hold that all future Bible prophecy was fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. If there is a future second coming, they say, the Bible does not talk about it. Extreme preterists believe that there is no future bodily resurrection, which place them outside the realm of Christian orthodoxy." (Has Bible Prophecy Been Fulfilled?)

Tim LaHaye "those who teach Christ came physically in A.D. 70 are borderline heretics" (End Times Controversy, p. 10)

Robert Mounce "The major problem with the preterist position is that the decisive victory portrayed in the latter chapters of the Apocalypse was never achieved. It is difficult to believe that John envisioned anything less than the complete overthrow of Satan, the final destruction of evil, and the eternal reign of God. If this is not to be, then either the Seer was essentially wrong in the major thrust of his message or his work was so hopelessly ambiguous that its first recipients were all led astray" (The Book of Revelation, 1977, 27)

Gary North "I recommend the immediate public recantation and personal repentance of Russell's theology (Full Preterism). Barring this, I recommend the heretic's excommunication by his church's judicial body. The elders should allow the accused member to identify the heresy for which he is then excommunicated." (David Chilton, R.I.P.)

"I would suggest that we not encourage (David Chilton's) heresy by interacting with him on this matter on this or any other forum. It is now a matter of Church discipline, assuming that he is under any." (North on Chilton)

"We can and should pray for the restoration of his mind, but to debate with him publicly will almost certainly drive him deeper into this heresy. He will feel compelled to defend himself in public. Let him go in peace. It is not our God-given task to confront him at this point. That is for his local church to do." (North on Chilton)

"Church officers who learn of any member's commitment to the doctrine of "full preterism" have an obligation to help this member clarify his or her thinking, and either become fully consistent with the full-preterist position or else fully abandon it. The member should be brought before the church's session or other disciplinary body and asked the following six questions in writing:"

"the member must also be asked to sign an affirmation of Chapter XXXIII of the Westminster Confession of Faith and answer 90 of the Larger Catechism. This signed statement constitutes a formal rejection of the "full preterist" position. The member must be told in advance that this signed statement can be shown to others at the discretion of the session. If the member refuses to sign such a statement under these conditions, the elders should continue the disciplinary process."

"There are only three lawful ways out of a local congregation: by death, by letter of transfer, and by excommunication. Presbyterian laymen who have been brought before the church's session because they are suspected of holding heretical preterism, and who persist in their commitment to heretical preterism by refusing to sign a statement that is consistent with the Westminster standards, must be removed from membership in the local congregation by excommunication." ("Full Preterism" : Manichean or Perfectionist-Pelagian?)

Joe Price (1989) "It is not a harmless, private conviction which can be held without hurting oneself and others, but a pernicious theory of error which engulfs the soul of men in destructive heresy!" (Joe Price, "The Second Coming of Christ: Did it Already Occur'! (3)," Guardian of Truth. November 2, 1989, p. 650).

Brian Simmons (2008) "Full Preterism is a system that demands a priori reasoning. Its logical method is not optional, but required. Typically it starts with a “necessary” truth, such as that “all prophecy was fulfilled in A.D. 70.” Then it proceeds to filter out the evidence, working from an assumption to its logical conclusions. In the course of his studies, the interpreter will sometimes make use of the inductive method: but only to verify and confirm his assumptions. Whenever these assumptions are confuted by Scripture evidence, he tampers with the facts, often deliberately confusing their meaning or displacing their context. Sometimes he just ignores them." (The Logic of Full Preterism)

David B. Updegraff (1892) "THE effort to make people believe that the promised parousia [coming] of our Lord took place at the "destruction of Jerusalem" tends to mislead souls, blot out the Christian's hope, and destroy the value of Scripture as a definite testimony to anything." (Old Corn: Or, Sermons and Addresses on the Spiritual Life, p. 278)

Jim West "We must not let them get away with calling themselves "preterists" or "consistent preterists," or believers in "fulfilled eschatology." The word "preterist" is a good word. The disciples of Hymenæus are not preterists; their "dispensable eschatology" makes them heretics. " (The Allurement of Hymenæan Preterism: The Rise of Dispensable Eschatology)

Douglas Wilson "When some people find a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail. In the world of hyper-preterism, we find that everything is devoted to tying everything else into A.D. 70 somehow." (WSTTB, p.255 )

http://www.preteristarchive.com/Hyper/Watchdog/defining-hyper_full.html

http://preteristheresy.blogspot.com/2008/01/full-preterist-is-hyper-preterism.html

Larry Siegle: Preterism "So Far Astray"

Larry Siegle
How could a movement (FULL PRETERISM) so grounded in respect for the integrity of the word of God go so far astray from its theological roots?

preterist.wordpress.com/2008/01/22/preterism-consistency-consensus-and-confusion/

http://preteristheresy.blogspot.com/2008/01/larry-siegle_15.html

Full Preterism's Inherent UNIVERSALISM

Click on Image to Expand

Death Was Swallowed Up in AD70

Virgil Vaduva - "That is why in 1 Corinthians 15, Paul can happily say "Where, O death is your victory? Where, O death is your sting?" He is not talking about physical death but spiritual death because he specifies sin and Jesus' victory over spiritual death in the very next verse: "The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus conquered death and reunited us with God." (Answer to Gromacki)


The Law Was Utterly Removed in AD70

Don Preston - "I find it impossible to escape the conclusion that either the Great Trumpet of the Lord sounded in that first century generation or Jesus' promise failed and man still has no escape from sin, from separation from God. The Good News is, the Trumpet sounded and the final barriers between God and man were removed as God took away the last vestiges of "the law" which held the "power of sin." Man can now be fully justified and live in full assurance that "he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life" (John 5:24). Thank God for the sounding of the Great Trumpet!" (With The Sounding of the Trumpet)

Kurt Simmons - The Attack on Full Preterism: Which Death Was Defeated in AD70? - "Covenant Eschatology: Inherently Universalistic" The evidence is in: full Preterism is not the culprit linking Preterism to Universalism. The real culprits are false notions regarding the source and nature of mankind’s condemnation and his corporate justification as articulated by some in the Preterist community. Reformed Preterists, like Frost, interpret the “death” cast into the lake of fire in Rev. 20:14 as imputed Adamic guilt. King, on the other hand, equates it with annulment of the Mosaic law. Because these are universal in terms of their asserted condemnation, their destruction works universal justification, apart from faith and obedience. As they unconditionally condemned, so their annulment unconditionally justifies. It is as if the whole race were arraigned before the court of heaven upon an indictment reciting these two laws. The annulment of those laws ipso facto destroys the indictment, as there is no longer any law to base an accusation upon. Hence, all men stand acquitted. In the words of Sam Frost: “There is no law taking into account our sins.”


Hope is no Longer Needed, as it was Fulfilled in AD70

Larry Siegle "If you choose to live your life in HOPE of what lies in the great beyond, so be it--that is your unfortunate choice." (Posted Comments at Preterist.blogspot.com)


The Cross Incomplete for Salvation - AD70 Mandatory

Don Preston "The process (and ground) of taking away of sin undoubtedly began at the Cross, as Hebrews 9:26 affirms. It was not perfected and completed there, however." (eschatology.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=477&Itemid=61)

New Earth Christian Studies - "If they were looking forward to something, waiting eagerly for it, then they did not yet possess it in its fullness. And yet, there was always a sense in which they already owned it. They had the down payment. It was not that the New Covenant had not yet begun: It had, but it was not in full effect, until the Old Covenant was utterly destroyed. They were free of it's burden of slavery, but until the first tabernacle was removed, the way into the Holy Place and complete access to God was not disclosed. The Christians of the time were in a unique position: They were living not just between covenants, but in the end times of the Old Covenant which coincided with the beginning of the New." (God's Promises Fulfilled)


The Church of the New Testament Ceased in AD70

New Earth Christian Studies - "If they were looking forward to something, waiting eagerly for it, then they did not yet possess it in its fullness.. The Christians of the time were in a unique position: They were living not just between covenants, but in the end times of the Old Covenant which coincided with the beginning of the New." (God's Promises Fulfilled)

Michael Sartori "Is the church (in it's current traditional format) really how it is supposed to be? As a Full Preterist I tend to believe the church set up / government as established in the N/T was for a transitional period, from AD 30 to AD70." (Magi Forum - jaygary.com/starof2000/discus/messages/1/1.html)


The Church Not Established Until AD70

Don Preston "A key point of controversy surrounding the Preterist view of eschatology is the contention that the church/kingdom was not fully established on Pentecost but was in a state of incompletion until the Old World was taken out of the way in A.D.70. Every anti-Preterist which this writer has read or heard has made a major issue over this point. It would seem that this issue is one which our opponents believe is dangerous, and evidently they believe it easy to refute. As we shall seek to demonstrate, however, it is not the Preterist that has a problem with this issue, it is the one who holds to the traditional concept of eschatology; and especially in regard to the miraculous work of the Holy Spirit. (A Full Grown Baby?)


The "Unity of the Faith" Came in AD70

William Bell - "Fifth, Paul states that the gift of inspiration to apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers would continue till "we all come to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect (full-grown) man, (Eph. 4:11-14). It has been demonstrated that the full-grown man (perfect) state is equivalent in meaning and time to "when that which is perfect is come," and the "face to face" presence of Christ, (1 Cor. 13:8-12; Rev. 22:4). Things equal to the same thing are equal to one another. Therefore the "unity of the faith" equals to the "face to face" presence in the revelation of Jesus Christ at the end of the Jewish age. " (When Did Miracles Cease)

Miracles Ceased in AD70

William Bell - "Miracles were to last until the completion or end of the Jewish age.. Therefore, the scriptures limit the termination of miracles to the end of the Jewish age in 70 A.D.." (When Did Miracles Cease)

Michael Sartori - "Miracles were still in use to confirm Jesus' teaching and authority and the Old Covenant had not yet passed away (Hebrews 8:13). The church still needed pastors, elders, shepherds etc. to enable the transition to run smoothly. " (Magi Forum -http://jaygary.com/starof2000/discus/messages/1/1.html)

Spiritual Gifts Ceased in AD70

David Curtis "When that time arrived in AD 70, there was no longer a need for spiritual gifts." (The Permanence of Love)

Being "Sealed by the Holy Spirit" Ceased in AD70

William Bell - "When was that redemption completed? This is vital to an understanding of when those gifts would cease. Paul writes, "And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption, (Eph. 4:30)." (When Did Miracles Cease)

The New Covenant Began in AD70

Virgil Vaduva - "Since heaven would not exist until the return of Christ, all the dead in Christ would be required to go to Hades, not heaven." (Answer to Gromacki)


Heaven Didn't Exist Until AD70

William Bell - "How confusing it would have been for Jesus to direct the apostles to the end of the Christian age which is endless and had not yet begun when the very age in which they were living had not reached its consummation!." (When Did Miracles Cease)

Michael Sartori - "I would contend that the O/C passed away in AD70 and the N/C commenced in AD70, at the destruction of Jerusalem. " (Magi Forum -http://jaygary.com/starof2000/discus/messages/1/1.html)

The Great Trumpet Sounded in AD70

Don Preston - "I find it impossible to escape the conclusion that either the Great Trumpet of the Lord sounded in that first century generation or Jesus' promise failed and man still has no escape from sin, from separation from God.. Thank God for the sounding of the Great Trumpet!" (With The Sounding of the Trumpet)

The Living and the Dead Were Judged in AD70 ; Sheol Emptied

Stephen Douglas - At the time of the emptying of Sheol as a result of the judgment in AD 70, the living and the those who had died before that time were judged based on their faithfulness to God. (undeception.wordpress.com/2007/11/01/common-objections-to-full-preterism-below-the-surface/#comments)

Supernatural Powers of Evil Ceased in AD70

William Bell - "It also explains the cessation of demon possession and the supernatural powers of evil spirits which were independent of apostles' hands or disciples' vital signs. The cessation of prophecy and demon possession was linked to the fulfillment of old testament prophecy." (When Did Miracles Cease)

Dan Harden -“Yes the effect of human sin is sufficient to account for all of the horrible expressions of wickedness that we see in our world today. We find little excuse to blame Satan for the evil about us. Christ has tied up the strong one and plundered his house”

That Which is Perfect Came in AD70 at the Second Coming

William Bell - "Therefore, seeing face to face which is equal to the coming of the perfect in the Corinthian text, is equal in time to "seeing His face" in the New Jerusalem at the second coming. It is the full open-faced, unmirorred revelation or unveiling of God's glory in Christ, a glory that was ready to be (about to be) revealed in the apostles' own generation.. Lastly, the end of the age, the revelation or day of Christ, the full-grown man, the coming of the perfect, seeing "face to face," the redemption of the purchased possession, receiving the inheritance, and the unity of the faith are all equivalents in time and meaning having occurred in 70 A.D. with the fall of Jerusalem" (When Did Miracles Cease)

David Curtis "That which is perfect refers to the maturity of the body at the rapture of the church, which happened at the second coming of Christ, bringing in the New Heavens and New Earth which closed the cannon. This all took place in AD 70, when the Lord returned, bringing in the New Heaven and Earth where we see Him face to face. So the coming again of our Lord for his people brought them to full maturity. " (The Permanence of Love)

Redemption Was Completed in AD70

William Bell - "If that redemption were "completed" at the cross or on the day of Pentecost, then miraculous gifts were a useless commodity to the church as it relates to the same. Further proof that the redemption was not complete was the "futurity" of the inheritance which would be received at the second coming.. The completion of that redemption was clearly future at the time of the writing of Ephesians, about A.D. 58, though not removed from that first-century generation.. Therefore, the redemption of the purchased possession was completed in A.D. 70, at the fall of Jerusalem which corresponds in time to the end of the Jewish age and coming or parousia of Christ. This was the "day of redemption" and the termination of the "earnest" or miraculous gifts." (When Did Miracles Cease)

Satan Was Utterly Destroyed in the Lake of Fire in AD70

Don Preston - "But Jesus comes in judgment on that apostate city and destroys her. In chapter 20 judgment is set, Satan is cast into the lake of fire; and Jesus takes his glorious bride unto himself! This all happened in 70 AD with the full destruction of the Theocracy of Israel, the persecuting city of Jerusalem, the Old Heavens and Earth. The New Creation is complete--what Satan had succeeded in getting man to forfeit, communion with God and eternal life, is restored. Satan lost — God finished His work." (The Binding of Satan)

The World Entered the Eternal Age in AD70

Ed Stevens - "That 40-year period between Pentecost and Holocaust was just a transition phase between “this age” and “the age about to come.” It is “the age about to come” that was to be the eternal one. We have several examples of 40-year transitional periods in the OT (wilderness wandering, David’s reign, etc.). According to Moses and the prophets the transition between the two ages was not supposed to be eternal, nor even a long protracted period. Gentry has missed the significance of the transition period, and confused the passages about the transition period with those about the eternal kingdom." (Stevens Responds to Gentry)

Don Preston - "This New World was consummated when God destroyed his old people, Isaiah 65:13ff, the Old Jerusalem; the Old Heavens and Earth of Judaism, Isaiah 51:15-16; bringing to a close the Old World (Age, Matthew 24:3) and bringing to glorious perfection, 1 Cor. 13:8, the New World. That time was when Jesus returned and destroyed the capital and hub of the Old World, Jerusalem, in A.D. 70." (More On No Death, No Sorrow, No Pain)

AD70 Was the Dawning of the New Day for the New World

Don Preston - "The New Day was to come when Jesus as Messenger of the Covenant fulfilled the punitive measures of the Old Covenant in destroying his enemies in the day of fire, Malachi 3:1-3; 4:1-6; the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord. Since John, as Elijah, knew that Great Day of Wrath was imminent it therefore follows that the New Day that was to follow that Day of Judgment was imminent also. I believe the only scenario that satisfies the teaching of the Old and New Covenants concerning the Dawning of the New Day is when Christ returned in judgment, destroying the Old World of Darkness and Death, II Corinthians 3. This patently was not on Pentecost; the New Testament writers, writing after Pentecost saw the Day as still future, but imminent, I Peter 4:5,7; James 5:7-9. The New Day fully came in 70 AD when Jesus returned in judgment of the Old World of Darkness and brought the New Day of Salvation. The Day has come." (The Day Has Come)

The Rapture Was in AD70

Walt Hibbard - The Second Coming of Christ, the Resurrection of the Dead from out of Hades, the Judgment of the Sheep and the Goats, the Marriage Supper of the Lamb – all would take place literally and coinciding with the Roman armies march, immediately after the tribulation of those days. For then “the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first. When we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air (I Thess. 4:16-17). This was a literal “catching up” of all true believers on earth at that time. (The Expectation and Logic of a Literal Catching Up)

The Great Commission Was Fulfilled in AD70

Dan Harden - “The Great Commission was a special time of inspired Apostolic activity that will never be repeated”

http://www.preteristarchive.com/Hyper/Watchdog/defining-hyper_full.html

http://preteristheresy.blogspot.com/2008/01/full-preterisms-inherent-universalism.html