Dr. Kelly Nelson Birks "It is hermeneutical error to take an OT quote as a means by which one attempts to bring light to a fresh NT truth. This is made overtly clear when some of us take a passage like Isa. 25:19 or Hosea 6:1-3 which said contexts are using the analogy of resurrection as a means to communicate the nation of Israel's restoration back to the land of promise from Babylonian, Assyrian, and Persian bondage.
I have never been able to understand how any Pret could read these OT texts and ignore the context of those passages that teach the above. But the reverse methodology that I have described is being used I believe to support a preterist prejudice.
The prejudiced was given birth by Max King. No one before Max had ever written or talked about this corporate body view of the resurrection. This "new information" was begun and had it's genesis in the mind of a single, uninspired human being. It is neither legitimate nor glorifying to God to take as one's teacher on so important a subject as this without critical analysis. We have not done this.
The title of my blog "A Star Trek Blog-ology" is a means to illicit an emotional attraction to what I have concluded to be nothing less than a Sci Fi fantasy of the resurrection. The threat that the Borg made to all those that they encountered was "Resistance is futile. We will absorb your individual personalities into our collective"."
"The corporate body view of the resurrection is wrong."
groups.yahoo.com/group/PretCosmos/message/18233
Coming as a Thief in Broad Daylight?
Coming like a thief in the night has now found all new meaning. This video is hard evidence that Jesus was speaking of specific historical events that could only be seen and witnessed by those who were there. This gives this passage a whole new meaning of how this amazing prophecy was fulfilled.
"THIS IS HOW HISTORY IS MADE!!"
Joel 2:1-9: " "[...] for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;[...] they shall enter in at the windows like a thief. "
Matthew 24:43: "But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up."
Luke 12:39: "And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through."
Revelation 3:3: "[...] If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee."Revelation 16:15: "Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth [...]"
1st. Thessalonians 5:2: "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night".
Does "like a thief" REALLY sound or look like the march of Roman armies against Jerusalem? Be honest!
David Pease: Muting the Messiah?
David In the "last days" God spoke to us through His Son. These are not the "last days" - they were from about 30 a.d. to 70 a.d."
willnotdelay.blogspot.com/2008/09/those-who-prophesy-out-of-their-own.html
willnotdelay.blogspot.com/2008/09/those-who-prophesy-out-of-their-own.html
Larry Seigle: 2,000 Years of Dishonest Christanity?
Larry Seigle "When we take ALL of the facts regarding the (1) FACT of the Parousia, (2) TIME of the Parousia, (3) MANNER of the Parousia, and (4) PURPOSE of the Parousia and prove the evidence surrounding EACH of the elements is true, we have proved the WHOLE of the proposition is true. Since the Parousia necessarily includes the resurrection and the judgment when the ONE is proved to be true, then it necessarily follows that ALL THREE (Parousia, Resurrection and Judgment) are proved."
"The following argument is only valid for those who believe in the absolute authority and inspiration of the Scriptures and who are willing to accept that the Bible us to be understood without either "addition" or "subtraction"
preterism.ning.com/profiles/blog/show?id=1632544%3ABlogPost%3A19427
This is almost identical to what Don Preston said. The quote from Don Preston is one of the most arrogant and self righteous that I have ever seen from a supposed Christian.
"The following argument is only valid for those who believe in the absolute authority and inspiration of the Scriptures and who are willing to accept that the Bible us to be understood without either "addition" or "subtraction"
preterism.ning.com/profiles/blog/show?id=1632544%3ABlogPost%3A19427
This is almost identical to what Don Preston said. The quote from Don Preston is one of the most arrogant and self righteous that I have ever seen from a supposed Christian.
The bible never speaks of physical death in any eschatological sense
Stephen Douglas "The upshot is that full preterists see physical death not as the adverse result of sin or anything else but as the original state of affairs. The elimination of physical death on earth was never an eschatological expectation. "
undeception.com/index.php/2008/09/14/first-things-and-last-things/
I guess this means that the physical death of Jesus on the cross and the resurrection of Christ was never a part of the eschatological expectation either. WOW! Or Paul waiting for the Lord's appearing at his own death when he finished the race and would receive his crown. Obviously, if physical death had nothing to do with Paul's finish line, then why did he not already have the crown he was hoping for.
undeception.com/index.php/2008/09/14/first-things-and-last-things/
I guess this means that the physical death of Jesus on the cross and the resurrection of Christ was never a part of the eschatological expectation either. WOW! Or Paul waiting for the Lord's appearing at his own death when he finished the race and would receive his crown. Obviously, if physical death had nothing to do with Paul's finish line, then why did he not already have the crown he was hoping for.
Is Hyper-Preterism Another Type of Big Bang Theory?
Big Bang Theory:
1. There was "nothing". 2. "Bang". 3. There was everything.
Hyper-Preterist Theory:
1. There was sin and death 2. "Bang" 3. There was life.
1. There was the old kingdom 2. "Bang" 3. There was the new kingdom.
1. There was old age 2. "Bang" 3. There was new age.
1. There was old heavens and earth 2. "Bang" 3. There was the new heavens and earth.
1. The present Jerusalem was destroyed 2. "Bang" 3. The new Jerusalem was established.
1. The old covenant was destroyed 2. "Bang" 3. There was the new covenant.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Big Bang Theory: Teaches that the universe as we know if came from nowhere billions of years ago.
Hyper-Preterist Theory: Teaches that Preterism came from a nobody (Max King) in 1971. And now it has billions of subscribers.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Big Bang Theory: Attempts to explains how the universe was created.
Hyper-Preterist Theory: Attempts to explain how the new covenant was created.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Big Bang Theory: According to the Big Bang theory, our universe burst into sudden existence in a massive explosion called the Big Bang and it's still evolving. This theory is an effort to explain what happened at the very beginning of our universe.
Hyper-Preterist Theory: According to the Hyper-Preterist theory, Christianity burst into sudden existence by physical and historical events which resulted in an invisible unheard bang. This theory is an extreme effort to explain how old things ended and new things began resulting from this invisible explosion in 70AD.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Big Bang Theory: Prior to that moment there was nothing; during and after that moment there was something: our universe.
Hyper-Preterist Theory: Believes prior to historical events occurring, eternal and unseen heavenly things can not be established, or in their full form. The idea that earthly things trigger heavenly things. That time and visible history like 70AD creates a big bang which puts all heavenly things in place.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Big Bang Theory: In essence, this theory states that the universe began from an initial point or singularity which has expanded over billions of years to form the universe as we now know it.
Hyper-Preterist Theory: In essence, this theory states that the covenant, the kingdom, the coming age, the new heavens and earth began at a specific point in time (70AD) and has since expanded to include all God's creation and will eventually fill the entire earth.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Unlike the scientific community, HyperPreterism actually believes that the world is eternal and will continue forever, despite the fact that no star such as our sun will last forever. According to science, earth is in a solar system, our solar system is in a galaxy, our galaxy is one of many galaxies contained within a very large universe. The milky way galaxy is just a tiny drop in the overall ocean of the universe. Likewise, Hyper-Preterism also is just a tiny drop in the overall ocean of Christianity.
Any physical theory is always provisional, in the sense that it is only a hypothesis: you can never prove it. No matter how many times a specific passage may agree with some theory or doctrine, you can never be sure that another passage will not contradict your theory. On the other hand, you can disprove a theory by finding a single passage that disagrees with the principles of a theory... Like science, every time a new experiment is observed to agree with a prediction the theory survives, and our confidence in it is increased; but if ever a new observation is found to disagree, we have to abandon or modify the theory. Such is true with Hyper-Preterism.
1. There was "nothing". 2. "Bang". 3. There was everything.
Hyper-Preterist Theory:
1. There was sin and death 2. "Bang" 3. There was life.
1. There was the old kingdom 2. "Bang" 3. There was the new kingdom.
1. There was old age 2. "Bang" 3. There was new age.
1. There was old heavens and earth 2. "Bang" 3. There was the new heavens and earth.
1. The present Jerusalem was destroyed 2. "Bang" 3. The new Jerusalem was established.
1. The old covenant was destroyed 2. "Bang" 3. There was the new covenant.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Big Bang Theory: Teaches that the universe as we know if came from nowhere billions of years ago.
Hyper-Preterist Theory: Teaches that Preterism came from a nobody (Max King) in 1971. And now it has billions of subscribers.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Big Bang Theory: Attempts to explains how the universe was created.
Hyper-Preterist Theory: Attempts to explain how the new covenant was created.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Big Bang Theory: According to the Big Bang theory, our universe burst into sudden existence in a massive explosion called the Big Bang and it's still evolving. This theory is an effort to explain what happened at the very beginning of our universe.
Hyper-Preterist Theory: According to the Hyper-Preterist theory, Christianity burst into sudden existence by physical and historical events which resulted in an invisible unheard bang. This theory is an extreme effort to explain how old things ended and new things began resulting from this invisible explosion in 70AD.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Big Bang Theory: Prior to that moment there was nothing; during and after that moment there was something: our universe.
Hyper-Preterist Theory: Believes prior to historical events occurring, eternal and unseen heavenly things can not be established, or in their full form. The idea that earthly things trigger heavenly things. That time and visible history like 70AD creates a big bang which puts all heavenly things in place.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Big Bang Theory: In essence, this theory states that the universe began from an initial point or singularity which has expanded over billions of years to form the universe as we now know it.
Hyper-Preterist Theory: In essence, this theory states that the covenant, the kingdom, the coming age, the new heavens and earth began at a specific point in time (70AD) and has since expanded to include all God's creation and will eventually fill the entire earth.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Unlike the scientific community, HyperPreterism actually believes that the world is eternal and will continue forever, despite the fact that no star such as our sun will last forever. According to science, earth is in a solar system, our solar system is in a galaxy, our galaxy is one of many galaxies contained within a very large universe. The milky way galaxy is just a tiny drop in the overall ocean of the universe. Likewise, Hyper-Preterism also is just a tiny drop in the overall ocean of Christianity.
Any physical theory is always provisional, in the sense that it is only a hypothesis: you can never prove it. No matter how many times a specific passage may agree with some theory or doctrine, you can never be sure that another passage will not contradict your theory. On the other hand, you can disprove a theory by finding a single passage that disagrees with the principles of a theory... Like science, every time a new experiment is observed to agree with a prediction the theory survives, and our confidence in it is increased; but if ever a new observation is found to disagree, we have to abandon or modify the theory. Such is true with Hyper-Preterism.
70AD Brought in the New World Order
Stephen Douglas "As long as the Old Covenant was kicking, as long as the Temple was standing and the Jewish cultus was active, the old system was functioning mockingly alongside the New Covenant built upon the shed blood of Christ; that’s what AD 70 was about - filling up the new wineskins and effectively bursting the old wineskins with the new wine. The “New World Order” of Christianity was the direct result of the fulfillment and abolition of the Old one."
undeception.com/index.php/2008/09/14/first-things-and-last-things/
undeception.com/index.php/2008/09/14/first-things-and-last-things/
Duncan McKenzie: The spiritual but historical kingdom?
Duncan McKenzie Article: When was the Kingdom of God Fully Established?
"The kingdom of God was fully established in heaven at Jesus’ ascension in AD 30; it was fully established on earth at His Parousia in AD 70. " (FIRST OFF, THIS MEANS THE KINGDOM IS NOT ETERNAL. DUNCAN EQUATES HISTORY AND TIME WITH UNSEEN HISTORY AND TIME. AS IF TIME IN HEAVEN EXISTS, AND MORE SPECIFICALLY IS EQUIVALENT WITH OUR TIME. DUNCAN SAYS IT WAS ESTABLISHED IN HEAVEN HISTORICALLY IN AD30? SAY WHAT? YET IT IS ESTABLISHED AGAIN HISTORICALLY IN AD70? WHAT EVER HAPPENED TO THE KINGDOM BEING WITHIN AND PERSONAL?)
"This was at AD 70, the time when the kingdom of this world fully became the kingdom of God; this was the time of the kingdom being present with full power." (THIS DOCTRINE IS AKA AS UNIVERSALISM, ESPECIALLY SINCE THE KINGDOM OF THIS WORLD BECOMES NONEXISTENT AND OR CHANGED TO BECOME THE KINGDOM OF GOD,)
"At AD 70 the whole world became the Holy Land; that is, it became the domain of God’s new covenant people." (GOD'S PEOPLE NOW RULE THE WHOLE WORLD?)
"At AD 70 the sea (a symbol of the abode of the serpent, and non covenant people, ) ceased to exist. The domain of the serpent was gone at AD 70 as the whole world became the domain (spiritually speaking) of God’s people. " (NON-COVENANT PEOPLE CEASED TO EXIST?)
"The end point of this spiritual exodus (of a time and times and half a time, was the AD 70 shattering of the Jewish nation. This was when the kingdom of God would be fully established on earth and Satan would be bound for the millennium." (NOTE DUNCAN DOES NOT SAY THE MILLENNIUM IS PAST, UNLIKE OTHER HYPER-PRETERISTS. IT SOUNDS LIKE HE SUBSCRIBES TO A FUTURISTIC TEACHING THAT THE MILLENNIUM HAS NOT YET EXPIRED.)
". . . NT portrays Satan and active and unbound on earth in the time between AD 30 and AD 70. Even though Jesus was given all authority “in heaven and on earth” at the cross, Satan was still allowed to be the “god” of the pre AD 70 age. " (SATAN IS NOW BOUND ON EARTH AFTER 70AD?)
"We see the casting of Death and Hades into the lake of fire as symbolizing both the AD 70 casting of the unrighteous dead into the lake of fire and the destruction of the intermediate state of the unrighteous dead at that time. At AD 70 the intermediate state of the dead was done away with." (A VIEW WHICH SAYS PAUL WAITED 2 YEARS BEFORE RECEIVING HIS CROWN. PAUL DID NOT ENTER INTO HEAVEN UNTIL AFTER 70AD CAME.)
"The kingdom of God is world-wide since AD 70."
"The kingdom of God had a two stage establishment. It was fully established in heaven at Jesus’ ascension in AD 30; it was fully established on earth at Jesus’ Parousia in AD 70." (DUAL FULFILLMENTS?)
"Again, this is a post-AD 70 picture of the kingdom age. The New Jerusalem coming to earth is speaking of the AD 70 full establishment of God’s kingdom on earth." (THE KINGDOM WAS ONLY PARTIALLY ESTABLISHED PRIOR TO 70ad?)
"The kingdom of God is a spiritual kingdom (EXCEPT FOR THE FACT DUNCAN MAKES THE KINGDOM INTO HISTORICAL EVENTS. WHICH MEANS THAT IT CAN NOT BE SPIRITUAL) not a physical kingdom. (YET IT IS HISTORICALLY ESTABLISHED?)." (BUT A SPIRITUAL KINGDOM THAT RELIES ON PHYSICAL EVENTS IN ORDER FOR IT TO BE CONSIDERED ESTABLISHED? SAY WHAT?)
"The kingdom of God was fully established in heaven at Jesus’ ascension in AD 30; it was fully established on earth at His Parousia in AD 70. " (FIRST OFF, THIS MEANS THE KINGDOM IS NOT ETERNAL. DUNCAN EQUATES HISTORY AND TIME WITH UNSEEN HISTORY AND TIME. AS IF TIME IN HEAVEN EXISTS, AND MORE SPECIFICALLY IS EQUIVALENT WITH OUR TIME. DUNCAN SAYS IT WAS ESTABLISHED IN HEAVEN HISTORICALLY IN AD30? SAY WHAT? YET IT IS ESTABLISHED AGAIN HISTORICALLY IN AD70? WHAT EVER HAPPENED TO THE KINGDOM BEING WITHIN AND PERSONAL?)
"This was at AD 70, the time when the kingdom of this world fully became the kingdom of God; this was the time of the kingdom being present with full power." (THIS DOCTRINE IS AKA AS UNIVERSALISM, ESPECIALLY SINCE THE KINGDOM OF THIS WORLD BECOMES NONEXISTENT AND OR CHANGED TO BECOME THE KINGDOM OF GOD,)
"At AD 70 the whole world became the Holy Land; that is, it became the domain of God’s new covenant people." (GOD'S PEOPLE NOW RULE THE WHOLE WORLD?)
"At AD 70 the sea (a symbol of the abode of the serpent, and non covenant people, ) ceased to exist. The domain of the serpent was gone at AD 70 as the whole world became the domain (spiritually speaking) of God’s people. " (NON-COVENANT PEOPLE CEASED TO EXIST?)
"The end point of this spiritual exodus (of a time and times and half a time, was the AD 70 shattering of the Jewish nation. This was when the kingdom of God would be fully established on earth and Satan would be bound for the millennium." (NOTE DUNCAN DOES NOT SAY THE MILLENNIUM IS PAST, UNLIKE OTHER HYPER-PRETERISTS. IT SOUNDS LIKE HE SUBSCRIBES TO A FUTURISTIC TEACHING THAT THE MILLENNIUM HAS NOT YET EXPIRED.)
". . . NT portrays Satan and active and unbound on earth in the time between AD 30 and AD 70. Even though Jesus was given all authority “in heaven and on earth” at the cross, Satan was still allowed to be the “god” of the pre AD 70 age. " (SATAN IS NOW BOUND ON EARTH AFTER 70AD?)
"We see the casting of Death and Hades into the lake of fire as symbolizing both the AD 70 casting of the unrighteous dead into the lake of fire and the destruction of the intermediate state of the unrighteous dead at that time. At AD 70 the intermediate state of the dead was done away with." (A VIEW WHICH SAYS PAUL WAITED 2 YEARS BEFORE RECEIVING HIS CROWN. PAUL DID NOT ENTER INTO HEAVEN UNTIL AFTER 70AD CAME.)
"The kingdom of God is world-wide since AD 70."
"The kingdom of God had a two stage establishment. It was fully established in heaven at Jesus’ ascension in AD 30; it was fully established on earth at Jesus’ Parousia in AD 70." (DUAL FULFILLMENTS?)
"Again, this is a post-AD 70 picture of the kingdom age. The New Jerusalem coming to earth is speaking of the AD 70 full establishment of God’s kingdom on earth." (THE KINGDOM WAS ONLY PARTIALLY ESTABLISHED PRIOR TO 70ad?)
"The kingdom of God is a spiritual kingdom (EXCEPT FOR THE FACT DUNCAN MAKES THE KINGDOM INTO HISTORICAL EVENTS. WHICH MEANS THAT IT CAN NOT BE SPIRITUAL) not a physical kingdom. (YET IT IS HISTORICALLY ESTABLISHED?)." (BUT A SPIRITUAL KINGDOM THAT RELIES ON PHYSICAL EVENTS IN ORDER FOR IT TO BE CONSIDERED ESTABLISHED? SAY WHAT?)
HyperPreterist Newbie gives up confidence in the Bible for a speculative view
Laren "This process I'm going through, questioning, "Is this it, is this all there is, just this life??" Did you ever question those thoughts as you came to a fulfilled view?? I used to be comfortable in that scripture provided an answer to my searching questions, now I feel i'm just hanging out there. Maybe I'll get to the point of not caring, sometimes I hate my mind, always asking questions."
"But at least Jesus got to be resurrected from the dead to live on. We don't. That's what sucks, at least what I gather from the fulfilled view."
"I just wish we had the word of God to go to to back it up. Before coming to a fulfilled viewpoint, I felt confident in that the bible spoke of a resurrection post this physical life. But from a full fulfilled view, there is really just speculation, but I do see your point, and appreciate it."
talk-grace.com/showthread.php?t=1443
"But at least Jesus got to be resurrected from the dead to live on. We don't. That's what sucks, at least what I gather from the fulfilled view."
"I just wish we had the word of God to go to to back it up. Before coming to a fulfilled viewpoint, I felt confident in that the bible spoke of a resurrection post this physical life. But from a full fulfilled view, there is really just speculation, but I do see your point, and appreciate it."
talk-grace.com/showthread.php?t=1443
Death of self and the drawing near of God
Andrew Murray. Absolute Surrender
"By the death of self, the great hindrance to trust is self-effort. So long as you have got your own wisdom and thoughts and strength, you cannot fully trust God. But when God breaks you down, when everything begins to grow dim before your eyes and you see that you understand nothing, then God is coming near. If you will bow down in nothingness and wait on God, He will become all. As long as we are something, God cannot be all." (page 114)
Book Link
(James 4:8) Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
"By the death of self, the great hindrance to trust is self-effort. So long as you have got your own wisdom and thoughts and strength, you cannot fully trust God. But when God breaks you down, when everything begins to grow dim before your eyes and you see that you understand nothing, then God is coming near. If you will bow down in nothingness and wait on God, He will become all. As long as we are something, God cannot be all." (page 114)
Book Link
(James 4:8) Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
Hyper-Preterist View says Paul waited "two years for his crown." Paul was dead but had not yet entered eternal rest until 70AD past
Greg Simon "Rev 14:13 - "And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!'" "Yes," says the Spirit, "that they may rest from their labours, for their deeds follow with them."
Before that point of fulfillment of that part of Revelation, the dead were not yet to rest from their labours. In the sense that they were no longer burdened with life, they were, of course, resting. However in the sense of eternal rest - i.e. 'Heaven', see Hebrews 4 - they had yet to wait. At that point, the dead were raised. After that point, the dead would not have to wait."
"Paul is addressing the 'first resurrection', showing how it is not just the living at the time of Jesus' return who would benefit. Rather, the dead in Jesus had simply been awaiting the time when they would be given access to heaven, and God's presence."
geocities.com/newearthcs/studies/rapture.html
This view is also seen in some of the other Preteristic writings recently found. Charles Julius Guiteau. The Truth; a Companion to the Bible. 1879, the guy who assassinated U.S. President James A. Garfield, said
"Yes, yes, thou Paul, waited only two years for thy "crown." Thou wert executed AD 68, and thy Master came at the destruction of Jerusalem, AD70, and gavest thee thy "crown" (Guiteau, p. 30)
(2 Timothy 4:7-8) I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith; in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.
So I guess this answers the question, that Paul looked toward 70AD and not towards the reward he would receive upon crossing the finish line. Brilliant! 2 Timothy 4:7-8 PROVES BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT 70AD was the furthest from the mind of Paul and PROVES BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT that his crown would follow immediately after his own death. Likewise would follow immediately after the death of the faithful, those looking for his appearing, and being faithful unto the end.
It is so funny to watch Preterist equate history and time with things that are clearly outside of history and time. Like the idea that the dead had to wait for things to naturally and historically occur on earth before they could enter rest is so bizarre.
Here is a post by Ed Stevens making a similar statement.
Here is the original post about Charles Julius Guiteau. This is the guy who assassinated U.S. President James A. Garfield.
Before that point of fulfillment of that part of Revelation, the dead were not yet to rest from their labours. In the sense that they were no longer burdened with life, they were, of course, resting. However in the sense of eternal rest - i.e. 'Heaven', see Hebrews 4 - they had yet to wait. At that point, the dead were raised. After that point, the dead would not have to wait."
"Paul is addressing the 'first resurrection', showing how it is not just the living at the time of Jesus' return who would benefit. Rather, the dead in Jesus had simply been awaiting the time when they would be given access to heaven, and God's presence."
geocities.com/newearthcs/studies/rapture.html
This view is also seen in some of the other Preteristic writings recently found. Charles Julius Guiteau. The Truth; a Companion to the Bible. 1879, the guy who assassinated U.S. President James A. Garfield, said
"Yes, yes, thou Paul, waited only two years for thy "crown." Thou wert executed AD 68, and thy Master came at the destruction of Jerusalem, AD70, and gavest thee thy "crown" (Guiteau, p. 30)
(2 Timothy 4:7-8) I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith; in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.
So I guess this answers the question, that Paul looked toward 70AD and not towards the reward he would receive upon crossing the finish line. Brilliant! 2 Timothy 4:7-8 PROVES BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT 70AD was the furthest from the mind of Paul and PROVES BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT that his crown would follow immediately after his own death. Likewise would follow immediately after the death of the faithful, those looking for his appearing, and being faithful unto the end.
It is so funny to watch Preterist equate history and time with things that are clearly outside of history and time. Like the idea that the dead had to wait for things to naturally and historically occur on earth before they could enter rest is so bizarre.
Here is a post by Ed Stevens making a similar statement.
Here is the original post about Charles Julius Guiteau. This is the guy who assassinated U.S. President James A. Garfield.
Application ALSO a past event?
Ed Stevens "When one reads back through the NT after becoming a Preterist, he immediately begins to notice some things that no longer apply after AD 70. This naturally raises the question, "What else no longer applies?" What goes and what stays, and how do we know?" preterist.org/preteristbookstore.asp
Bob Stokes "If all prophecy was fulfilled in the past, how does that apply to us?"
Bob Stokes "If all prophecy was fulfilled in the past, how does that apply to us?"
Preterism: Timeline Focused?
Bob Stokes "Surely, the time-lines have to be admitted as giving us the clearest information as to when the events of the second coming were to take place. If the time-lines do not mean exactly what they say, then, . . . why put them in at all!!?"
members.shaw.ca/purelybiblical/articles/article_t2.htm
members.shaw.ca/purelybiblical/articles/article_t2.htm
How to Lose Friends and Alienate People
A book title suggestion for Don Preston's next book. . . "How to Lose Friends and Alienate People"Don Preston's article "How Is This Possible?"
"HONEST STUDENTS cannot IGNORE Biblical language. For too long we have ignored or rationalized the language of imminence and other problems in scriptures. We have simply ignored or failed to see problems such as those posed by the Thessalonican situation. This writer urges the reader of this tract to be OPEN MINDED enough to HONESTLY consider the issues and questions we have raised. That may be uncomfortable to be sure. But the pursuit of truth has its own distinctive rewards. If we are going to claim to be seekers of truth we are going to have to honestly confront these issues."
Don Preston's article: Can God Tell Time?
"Has God changed his vocabulary? Is it true that "at hand" once DID mean "at hand" but now it can mean "a long time?" If so, where is the evidence for the change? Surely, the HONEST STUDENT can clearly see there has been no such change in God's vocabulary. God can tell time; God can read a calendar. When God says something is at hand it is near. For man to argue otherwise is to reject the inspiration of the scriptures; it is to impugn the faithfulness of God; it is to impugn the ability of God to communicate; it is to do the very thing Israel of old did and for which they were condemned! This is a very serious matter indeed!"
What Don is really saying by these manipulative and dishonest comments is only those who subscribe to Don's own line of thinking can be considered honest or of the truth. Those who disagree with Don's views are dishonest, or mishandling the word of God, or simply closed minded.
Ed Burley: Universalism, aka Covenant Eschatology
Ed Burley "If you are a universalist, then you should not have a problem with pantelism's conclusions, but instead with our foundation, which is fulfilled eschatology, i.e., that Christ returned in AD70, as we believe the scripture teaches. That's called PRETERISM, or Covenant Eschatology."
talk-grace.com/showthread.php?t=1352&page=3 v
talk-grace.com/showthread.php?t=1352&page=3 v
The Spawn of Preterism: PRAYER NOT REQUIRED AFTER 70AD
Lynn "In Ephesians 6:18 they needed to "pray at all times in the Spirit . . .with all perseverance and petition for all the saints." But I think that they had to do so only until “the evil day” (verse 13) when the Lord came in vengeance destroying the holy city Jerusalem in 70 AD. So, yes, my opinion is that we’re not required to pray anymore."
talk-grace.com/showthread.php?t=398&highlight=Faith+required
talk-grace.com/showthread.php?t=398&highlight=Faith+required
The Spawn of Preterism: "I don't even have faith" "I have repented from faith"
Dallas "I believe that in AD 70 ALL eschatology and redemption through reconciliation took place... I also believe that all things are fulfilled, ALL people are now saved and ALL have been included into the fulfillment."
Dallas "IMO- i don't even have faith. my faithfulness is weakness and rewardless... I however trust that because of the FAITH that was in CHRIST I am. I have been included in everything, all things because of... I have repented from faith and trust that because of what Jesus did I am good and right... even as good and right as God Himself for in Jesus I have become the righteousness of God,
www.talk-grace.com/search.php?searchid=21375
Erik "If "personal faith" were required today, then who really would qualify, as nobody can even agree what the true faith is?"
Erik "We just don't interpret the "faith" that "saves", as a mandatory response from each individual person in the world, in order for them to be accepted into Heaven when they die."
.talk-grace.com/showthread.php?p=15142#post15142
Click here to see another post on how viewing the second coming a historically past event in 70AD removes the need for faith all together. Faith becomes a past event.
Dallas "IMO- i don't even have faith. my faithfulness is weakness and rewardless... I however trust that because of the FAITH that was in CHRIST I am. I have been included in everything, all things because of... I have repented from faith and trust that because of what Jesus did I am good and right... even as good and right as God Himself for in Jesus I have become the righteousness of God,
www.talk-grace.com/search.php?searchid=21375
Erik "If "personal faith" were required today, then who really would qualify, as nobody can even agree what the true faith is?"
Erik "We just don't interpret the "faith" that "saves", as a mandatory response from each individual person in the world, in order for them to be accepted into Heaven when they die."
.talk-grace.com/showthread.php?p=15142#post15142
Click here to see another post on how viewing the second coming a historically past event in 70AD removes the need for faith all together. Faith becomes a past event.
Kevin Beck: Signs of Horizontal Dualism - Humanity Delivered in AD 70
Kevin Beck wrote"Jesus’ teaching springs up as an outgrowth of his message concerning the imminent fulfillment of God’s promises on his generation. “The kingdom of God is at hand.” What does that have to do with mountain-moving faith? Jesus called people along the Galilean hillside to believe the gospel — the kingdom announcement. He invited them as the firstfruits of Israel to participate with him in the messianic work of transformation. Through their faith in God’s word, they would move the largest mountain they could imagine — Sinai. In its place, Mount Zion would materialize. "
In his famous allegory of Hagar and Sarah, the apostle Paul understood Sinai to signify Israel — and hence humanity — under the burden of law. With the arrival of the New Jerusalem, ISRAEL AND HUMANITY WOULD BE DELIVERED INTO ULTIMATE LIBERTY. For Paul, these “things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar — for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children — but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all” (Galatians 4:23-26).
transmillennial.wordpress.com/2008/08/28/parousiawhat-mountain/
In his famous allegory of Hagar and Sarah, the apostle Paul understood Sinai to signify Israel — and hence humanity — under the burden of law. With the arrival of the New Jerusalem, ISRAEL AND HUMANITY WOULD BE DELIVERED INTO ULTIMATE LIBERTY. For Paul, these “things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar — for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children — but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all” (Galatians 4:23-26).
transmillennial.wordpress.com/2008/08/28/parousiawhat-mountain/
Dorthy Anderson: I no longer hold to the FP position!!!!!!!!
Dorthy Anderson
"It may come as a shock to some, but I no longer hold to the FP position and no, Lloyd, nor Rod can be held to ridicule here for my change but they both have made some valid points that have complimented my study. I've studied Duncan MacKenzie's work and he raises many good points. Unlike Rod, I do have a scriptural response and I'll share it privately with some and then publicly when I get it on paper but in the meantime, I'm still in study. I've been seeing some problems for a while and have finally taken the time to search it out. While FP has straightened out much, it is not the end all imho." groups.yahoo.com/group/PretCosmos/message/18134
"My main issue with FP right now is that there are texts, like Rev 20, that just don't have an FP fit. I have never seen work. . . It's almost like taking those texts that won't fit and forcing them into the system. It just isn't working for me. That's what has led me to reconsider those texts and deal with them. If you have a problem with that, well, you'll just have to live with it. That's where I am and that's what I'm working on. I just can't force fit Rev 20 into an FP mold and that's just one. There are others."
"It may come as a shock to some, but I no longer hold to the FP position and no, Lloyd, nor Rod can be held to ridicule here for my change but they both have made some valid points that have complimented my study. I've studied Duncan MacKenzie's work and he raises many good points. Unlike Rod, I do have a scriptural response and I'll share it privately with some and then publicly when I get it on paper but in the meantime, I'm still in study. I've been seeing some problems for a while and have finally taken the time to search it out. While FP has straightened out much, it is not the end all imho." groups.yahoo.com/group/PretCosmos/message/18134
"My main issue with FP right now is that there are texts, like Rev 20, that just don't have an FP fit. I have never seen work. . . It's almost like taking those texts that won't fit and forcing them into the system. It just isn't working for me. That's what has led me to reconsider those texts and deal with them. If you have a problem with that, well, you'll just have to live with it. That's where I am and that's what I'm working on. I just can't force fit Rev 20 into an FP mold and that's just one. There are others."
Even Futurists Agree that Life is in Jesus NOT 70AD
JESUS brought life, not AD70. Even, FUTURISTS believe that!!
Ed Burley "We are living in the post-Parousia (Second Coming) world of what some call “The Messianic Age”, or “The Age of Grace”. It would also rightly be termed, “The Post-Death Age”. But if we are post-death; if death has been rendered useless and the Law no longer condemns, what is it that Jesus “saves” us from today? Death is dead. All who were dead in Adam, are made alive in Christ. This is the completion of the promise. While the firstfruits (the believers before Jesus’ Second Coming) had a specific purpose in the first century, through which that purpose was fulfilled through faith, today’s people have a different purpose. Our good news that we share is no longer “live lives pleasing to God”, but “God is pleased with you, live in that reality”. Is it not ironic that the more religion preaches how much God does not like us, and how much we are failing to keep his Law, the more the society sinks into the depths of despair? This must change.
Death is dead. Jesus has brought life. It is imperative that we get that message out. All people should live in that reality, for death is dead. It is nullified. It has been destroyed. Glory be to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."
angelsofliberty.blogspot.com/2008/08/death-of-death.html
Ed Burley "We are living in the post-Parousia (Second Coming) world of what some call “The Messianic Age”, or “The Age of Grace”. It would also rightly be termed, “The Post-Death Age”. But if we are post-death; if death has been rendered useless and the Law no longer condemns, what is it that Jesus “saves” us from today? Death is dead. All who were dead in Adam, are made alive in Christ. This is the completion of the promise. While the firstfruits (the believers before Jesus’ Second Coming) had a specific purpose in the first century, through which that purpose was fulfilled through faith, today’s people have a different purpose. Our good news that we share is no longer “live lives pleasing to God”, but “God is pleased with you, live in that reality”. Is it not ironic that the more religion preaches how much God does not like us, and how much we are failing to keep his Law, the more the society sinks into the depths of despair? This must change.
Death is dead. Jesus has brought life. It is imperative that we get that message out. All people should live in that reality, for death is dead. It is nullified. It has been destroyed. Glory be to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."
angelsofliberty.blogspot.com/2008/08/death-of-death.html
Horizontal Dualism Defined
Paige "Death = OC world
Transition = NT period (approx. 30 - 70 ad)
Life = NC world (70 and beyond)"
talk-grace.com/showthread.php?p=9880
Transition = NT period (approx. 30 - 70 ad)
Life = NC world (70 and beyond)"
talk-grace.com/showthread.php?p=9880
Don Preston: Preterism has been around "forever"
Don Preston Tract Seal Up Vision & Prophecy "Preterism is not new. It has been around "forever." Scholars of note have often held the view that the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD was the time of the end mentioned so often in the Bible. But because of the dominance of the more popularly held view of an end of time or millennium Preterism has seldom been allowed a hearing. This is changing very quickly." (Page 1)
C. Michael Patton: Hyper-Preterism is a Damnable Doctrine
C. Michael Patton: Is the Hyper-Preterist Gospel a Different Gospel? (2008) "During this program I said that hyper-preterism is definitely unorthodox, finding its antithetical opposite affirmed from the earliest Christianity until now by all traditions of Christianity (Orthodox, Catholic, and Protestant). All Christians have always affirmed that Christ’s return, the resurrection of the dead, judgment, and the new heavens and earth are yet future, even if we disagree about the details. However, I also said on the program that while this doctrine is an unorthodox or heretical view of eschatology, it is not a doctrine that is damnable in the sense that if one believes it, they are, by definition, not Christian.. I am beginning to seriously reconsider."
http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2008/03/is-the-hyper-preterist-gospel-a-different-gospel/
http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2008/03/is-the-hyper-preterist-gospel-a-different-gospel/
Newsflash: Hyper Preterist Pseudo-Science Exposed as "Childishly Illogical"
"Jason(Bradfield) calls people morons and justifies it on the basis of his reading of the bible. People who do not believe are considered sinners. I see this as more of a reflection of his intolerance than necessarily what "god might have meant." So it's his opinion. But then, what is the difference between demeaning people based on the bible and stoning people based on the bible? It is a matter of degree, but the consequences of carrying through with such "logic" is troubling.
Since no one can prove nor disprove any of his assumptions (axioms he calls them), I suggested we look at the consequences of a worldview based on such assumptions. Jason is reluctant and throws up a bunch of technicalities and refuses to engage. The certitude and the flat refusal to see anything wrong with circular reasoning (since it is not formally fallacious, only informally fallacious) is his way to avoid debate. That is fine. I can concede points for the sake of argument, but it's his choice if he will not."
newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/sam_harris/2006/12/gods_enemies_are_more_honest_t_1/all_comments.html
Signs of a Christian???
John Humphrey Noyes: Calling his own Preterist beliefs Heresy
John Humphrey Noyes, the leader of the Oneida Community “I first advanced into actual heresy in the early part of the summer of 1833 while still a student at New Haven Seminary. In the course of my Bible studies my attention was arrested by Christ’s expression in John 21:22: “If I will that he [John] tarry till I come, what is that to thee.” This seemed to imply that Jesus expected his disciple John to live until his second coming, and the disciples so construed it. The church on the contrary taught that Christ’s second coming was still far in the future. I had long been in the belief that the Bible was not a book of inexplicable riddles, and I determined to solve this mystery. Accordingly, I read the New Testament ten times with an eye on the question as to the time of Christ’s second coming, and my heart struggling in prayer for full access to the truth.” — source
“I soon perceived that every allusion to the second coming in which there was a clue as to its time pointed in the same direction; and when my investigation was ended, my mind was clear: I no longer conjectured, I knew that the time appointed for the second coming of Christ was within one generation from the time of his personal ministry.” — source
The two corner-stones of doctrine, equally important, on which Communism rests are the doctrine of, Complete Regeneration, or Salvation from Sin, and the truth that the Second Coming of Christ, and the founding of his heavenly kingdom, took place 1800 years ago. — From the Oneida Community Handbook, a section called Outline of Doctrines
“I soon perceived that every allusion to the second coming in which there was a clue as to its time pointed in the same direction; and when my investigation was ended, my mind was clear: I no longer conjectured, I knew that the time appointed for the second coming of Christ was within one generation from the time of his personal ministry.” — source
The two corner-stones of doctrine, equally important, on which Communism rests are the doctrine of, Complete Regeneration, or Salvation from Sin, and the truth that the Second Coming of Christ, and the founding of his heavenly kingdom, took place 1800 years ago. — From the Oneida Community Handbook, a section called Outline of Doctrines
www.preteristblog.com/?p=740
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