Ken Gentry SLAMS Hyper-Preterism
Ken Gentry: “Unfortunately, a distortion of preterism is currently gaining advocacy… A cult-like enthusiasm fuels this unorthodox movement, which teaches that the total complex of end time events transpired in the first-century:…This view is not supported by any creed or any council of the Church in history.”“The origins of this modern movement arise from and are fueled by many Christians either presently or previously within the church of Christ sect (e.g., Max King, Tim King, Ed Stevens, and others).”“The theological structure of the movement appears to be continually mutating. Of course, such should be expected when the position decries creedal moorings and rejoices in being adrift on a sea of untrained theologues.”
http://www.preteristarchive.com/Modern/2001_gentry_recent-developments.html
Ken Gentry BODY SLAMS Hyper-Preterism as Distorted and Cult-Like
Ken Gentry: “Unfortunately, a distortion of preterism is currently gaining advocacy… A cult-like enthusiasm fuels this unorthodox movement, which teaches that the total complex of end time events transpired in the first-century:…This view is not supported by any creed or any council of the Church in history.” “The origins of this modern movement arise from and are fueled by many Christians either presently or previously within the church of Christ sect (e.g., Max King, Tim King, Ed Stevens, and others).” “The theological structure of the movement appears to be continually mutating. Of course, such should be expected when the position decries creedal moorings and rejoices in being adrift on a sea of untrained theologues.”
http://www.preteristarchive.com/Modern/2001_gentry_recent-developments.html
http://www.preteristarchive.com/Modern/2001_gentry_recent-developments.html
Church is HISTORICALLY mature in 70AD?
Preterists maintains that the Church is somehow "mature" in is service to God since the OLD things of fleshly ordinances somehow disappeared in 70 AD. Typical Full Preterism tries to maintain that the church was an infant at pentecost yet in 70ad was fully mature. And it is funny that maturity is NEVER a state of which historical period you live but is a reflection of growing into the image of Christ.
Its amazing how similar FP is with dispensationalism. The only difference really is that they've taken the dispensational line and forwarded it 2000 years or so. All told, thats probably the grossest error that Full Preterism has made which is the cause of all error. Declaring ad70 to be a dispensational line in history, which cuts off the historical church from its roots and its foundation. To where ad70 is not only the end of Old Testament Judaism, but it is also the end of New Testament Christianity.
David Green
"In stark contrast, the Church today is "mature" in regard to its service to God. Instead of being under the yoke of hundreds of fleshly ordinances that symbolize a future redeemer, the Body of Christ now worships the Father "in spirit and in truth" (Jn. 4:23). "
http://www.preteristcosmos.com/questionsandanswers2.html
Don Preston
"A key point of controversy surrounding the Preterist view of eschatology is the contention that the church/kingdom was not fully established on Pentecost but was in a state of incompletion until the Old World was taken out of the way in A.D.70. "
http://www.eschatology.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=280&Itemid=61
David Curtis
"That which is perfect refers to the maturity of the body at the rapture of the church, which happened at the second coming of Christ, bringing in the New Heavens and New Earth which closed the cannon. This all took place in AD 70, when the Lord returned, bringing in the New Heaven and Earth where we see Him face to face. So the coming again of our Lord for his people brought them to full maturity. "
BUT YET CURTIS ALSO SAYS IN THIS SAME ARTICLE "Paul is contrasting what is temporal to what is eternal." BUT YET "This all took place in AD 70" LOL
http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/transcripts/eschatology/13_8-13n.htm
http://preteristheresy.blogspot.com/
Its amazing how similar FP is with dispensationalism. The only difference really is that they've taken the dispensational line and forwarded it 2000 years or so. All told, thats probably the grossest error that Full Preterism has made which is the cause of all error. Declaring ad70 to be a dispensational line in history, which cuts off the historical church from its roots and its foundation. To where ad70 is not only the end of Old Testament Judaism, but it is also the end of New Testament Christianity.
David Green
"In stark contrast, the Church today is "mature" in regard to its service to God. Instead of being under the yoke of hundreds of fleshly ordinances that symbolize a future redeemer, the Body of Christ now worships the Father "in spirit and in truth" (Jn. 4:23). "
http://www.preteristcosmos.com/questionsandanswers2.html
Don Preston
"A key point of controversy surrounding the Preterist view of eschatology is the contention that the church/kingdom was not fully established on Pentecost but was in a state of incompletion until the Old World was taken out of the way in A.D.70. "
http://www.eschatology.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=280&Itemid=61
David Curtis
"That which is perfect refers to the maturity of the body at the rapture of the church, which happened at the second coming of Christ, bringing in the New Heavens and New Earth which closed the cannon. This all took place in AD 70, when the Lord returned, bringing in the New Heaven and Earth where we see Him face to face. So the coming again of our Lord for his people brought them to full maturity. "
BUT YET CURTIS ALSO SAYS IN THIS SAME ARTICLE "Paul is contrasting what is temporal to what is eternal." BUT YET "This all took place in AD 70" LOL
http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/transcripts/eschatology/13_8-13n.htm
http://preteristheresy.blogspot.com/
Don Preston: Natural Antitypes are Past Events?
Don Preston: "We believe we have well demonstrated from scripture that the fall of Jerusalem was indeed the antitype of the Flood."
Don Preston: "It is apparent that Jackson believes that the type must be physically inferior in scale; the antitype must be physically/outwardly superior in scale." "It should be obvious that the progression from the lesser to the greater in Biblical typology is a progression in significance, in meaning; not in outward manifestation."
Don Preston "This all happened in 70 AD"
This shows again how preterists confuse spiritual and eternal things and make them really just NATURAL SOMETHINGS by saying they (as a already proven FACT) "happened in 70 AD." So now they are simply are "mere past events". This is clearly a assumption Preston has imagined in order to fit his system. How can 70 AD do justice to the picture of Satan being cast into the lake of fire or the wedding feast. Making 70 AD as the focal point shows the limitations of Preston's system to show how Satan is truely cast in the lake of fire (placed underfoot) in Christ, and how Christ establishes his covenant within us to transform us into his glorious bride. Satan has full rein and power over those who are of this world who walk after the flesh. Likewise, Christ does not make the world at large, who walk after the flesh his bride. Thus, it is a huge assumption to say "This all happended in 70 AD" when it in fact did not.
Don Preston "But Jesus comes in judgment on that apostate city and destroys her. In chapter 20 judgment is set, Satan is cast into the lake of fire; and Jesus takes his glorious bride unto himself! This all happened in 70 AD with the full destruction of the Theocracy of Israel, the persecuting city of Jerusalem, the Old Heavens and Earth. The New Creation is complete--what Satan had succeeded in getting man to forfeit, communion with God and eternal life, is restored. Satan lost — God finished His work. "
Larry Siegle
Larry Siegle
"As a Preterist I look forward to each day by looking backward to the events of the past . . .
http://preterist.wordpress.com/2008/01/09/what-futurists-hate-about-heaven/
http://preteristheresy.blogspot.com/2008/01/larry-siegle.html
"As a Preterist I look forward to each day by looking backward to the events of the past . . .
http://preterist.wordpress.com/2008/01/09/what-futurists-hate-about-heaven/
http://preteristheresy.blogspot.com/2008/01/larry-siegle.html
Hank Hanegraaff
While I am not a partial or full preterist or a futurist, I believe Hanegraff makes several super important points. 1.) Both futurists and preterists (both full and partial) look to history to prove fulfillment. 2.) The symbolic imagery in Revelation is not always intended to be symbolic of historical events. 3.) Some can't accept this because it is a either/or proposition.
Hank Hanegraaff
"But let me just clarify something here. I have a lot of sympathy for the partial preterist point of view. I simply do not call myself a partial preterist because I don't agree with everything that the partial preterists say. I think that in some cases the partial preterists make the same mistake that the futurist does, only in reverse. The futurist is in essence reading the Bible with one hand and the newspaper with the other, and the partial preterist oftentimes is trying to correlate events in history with what they read in the book of Revelation - oftentimes when that particular allusion in Revelation is symbolically intended as opposed to having some literal correspondence in first century history."
Hank Hanegraaff
"But let me just clarify something here. I have a lot of sympathy for the partial preterist point of view. I simply do not call myself a partial preterist because I don't agree with everything that the partial preterists say. I think that in some cases the partial preterists make the same mistake that the futurist does, only in reverse. The futurist is in essence reading the Bible with one hand and the newspaper with the other, and the partial preterist oftentimes is trying to correlate events in history with what they read in the book of Revelation - oftentimes when that particular allusion in Revelation is symbolically intended as opposed to having some literal correspondence in first century history."
"Now that may be a minor point of difference, but it is an important point from my perspective. Not only that, there are a lot of things that a partial preterist, from my perspective, makes an either/or proposition that I'm not comfortable making an either/or proposition.
Preterism's Pivotal Point in History
Rusty: The pivotal point in history for the Hyper-Preterist is AD70 with the destruction of Jerusalem, including the Jewish temple. It is at this event that they include the Glorious Return of the Lord Jesus Christ, the Resurrection of the dead, the Day of Judgment, and the creation of the new heavens and new earth. The hook, line and sinker used to embrace Hyper-Preterism is to focus solely on “time indicators,” which Hyper-Preterists claim determine the timing of the abovementioned events. The Hyper-Preterist’s hermeneutic for interpretation has a number of problems, such as failing to recognize that God did not inspire Scripture by giving the writers of Scripture a written document to copy down. Rather, God used men to communicate to men. Thus, we see the result of language being used differently by various writers of Scripture. The Hyper-Preterist does not recognize this simple fact, and can be plainly seen in a discussion of the “heavens and earth” (I deal with this subject later). Recognize also, that for this system of theology to make any sense, one must first accept the presupposition that there is only one coming of Christ in the New Testament. There were certainly a number of comings of the Lord in the Old Testament. Yet, when the Hyper-Preterist considers the New Testament, all prophecy must refer to AD70?
rustypth.com/hyperpreterism.htm
http://preteristheresy.blogspot.com/2008/01/pivotal-point-in-history-and-it-aint.html
rustypth.com/hyperpreterism.htm
http://preteristheresy.blogspot.com/2008/01/pivotal-point-in-history-and-it-aint.html
The Flawed Logic of Historico-Grammatical Methods of Interpretation
WE AFFIRM that God’s verbal revelation in Scripture is intended as a public communication and must be properly understood according to the same principles of interpretation which apply to any human, non-esoteric, literary work.
WE AFFIRM that the Scripture is interpreted correctly only when interpreted according to its letter (“literally”) in the normal, historical, and grammatical sense, taking account of a text’s literary genre (whether figurative or not, etc.) and the author’s intent (as determined semantically, and by the local and broader literary contexts).
WE DENY that Scripture contains secret wisdom or hidden, subtle meanings which are ascertained by approaching the Bible on some supposed higher or Spiritual plane.
WE DENY that deeper, creative insights and artistic connections in Scripture should be maximized by lines of interpretation which follow no objective, definite, or consistent rule of interpretation which would make publicly predictable and correctable conclusions possible.
WE DENY that Scripture is properly handled by any “prooftexting” method which fails to consult a text’s local context as well as the entire teaching of Scripture as it pertains to any particular text.
WE DENY as well that any theological or moral truth (including the larger theme or thrust of the Bible as a whole) can be established without adducing texts from Scripture which prove it or without showing that it follows by sound logical inference from such.
WE DENY that Scripture, as some would allege about any literary work, is empty of fixed and objective meaning so that its language makes no unchanging disclosure, its authorial intent is inaccessible, and every reading of a text constitutes a misreading.
WE DENY that literary evidence of stylized expression, order, or balance in a text of Scripture precludes its historicity or factuality.
WE DENY that the Biblical authors invented illustrative stories or traditions and then narrated or presented them as though they were actual historical events.
planetpreterist.com/news-5295.html#33244
WE AFFIRM that the Scripture is interpreted correctly only when interpreted according to its letter (“literally”) in the normal, historical, and grammatical sense, taking account of a text’s literary genre (whether figurative or not, etc.) and the author’s intent (as determined semantically, and by the local and broader literary contexts).
WE DENY that Scripture contains secret wisdom or hidden, subtle meanings which are ascertained by approaching the Bible on some supposed higher or Spiritual plane.
WE DENY that deeper, creative insights and artistic connections in Scripture should be maximized by lines of interpretation which follow no objective, definite, or consistent rule of interpretation which would make publicly predictable and correctable conclusions possible.
WE DENY that Scripture is properly handled by any “prooftexting” method which fails to consult a text’s local context as well as the entire teaching of Scripture as it pertains to any particular text.
WE DENY as well that any theological or moral truth (including the larger theme or thrust of the Bible as a whole) can be established without adducing texts from Scripture which prove it or without showing that it follows by sound logical inference from such.
WE DENY that Scripture, as some would allege about any literary work, is empty of fixed and objective meaning so that its language makes no unchanging disclosure, its authorial intent is inaccessible, and every reading of a text constitutes a misreading.
WE DENY that literary evidence of stylized expression, order, or balance in a text of Scripture precludes its historicity or factuality.
WE DENY that the Biblical authors invented illustrative stories or traditions and then narrated or presented them as though they were actual historical events.
planetpreterist.com/news-5295.html#33244
Brian Simmons: Logic of Full Preterism
Brian Simmons
Full Preterism is a system that demands a priori reasoning. Its logical method is not optional, but required. Typically it starts with a “necessary” truth, such as that “all prophecy was fulfilled in A.D. 70.” Then it proceeds to filter out the evidence, working from an assumption to its logical conclusions. In the course of his studies, the interpreter will sometimes make use of the inductive method: but only to verify and confirm his assumptions. Whenever these assumptions are confuted by Scripture evidence, he tampers with the facts, often deliberately confusing their meaning or displacing their context. Sometimes he just ignores them.
http://bsimmons74.wordpress.com/2008/01/08/the-logic-of-full-preterism-part-2/
Full Preterism is a system that demands a priori reasoning. Its logical method is not optional, but required. Typically it starts with a “necessary” truth, such as that “all prophecy was fulfilled in A.D. 70.” Then it proceeds to filter out the evidence, working from an assumption to its logical conclusions. In the course of his studies, the interpreter will sometimes make use of the inductive method: but only to verify and confirm his assumptions. Whenever these assumptions are confuted by Scripture evidence, he tampers with the facts, often deliberately confusing their meaning or displacing their context. Sometimes he just ignores them.
http://bsimmons74.wordpress.com/2008/01/08/the-logic-of-full-preterism-part-2/
Stephen Douglas
Emptying of sheol in ad70? The result of the judgment in ad70? Based on their faithfulness in ad70 the dead were judged? HOW SO? How does something spiritual like judgment take place in the course of time? I would love to see a verse on Douglas sheol suggestion. There has to be at least three deductive points in his line of reasoning.
This almost sounds like Douglas is teaching that there are two different modes of salvation. Which is EXACTLY what the dispys teach. Unless he believes that we too are judged based upon our "faithfulness" instead of by the applied blood of christ's faithfulness.
Stephen Douglas
At the time of the emptying of Sheol as a result of the judgment in AD 70, the living and the those who had died before that time were judged based on their faithfulness to God.
undeception.wordpress.com/2007/11/01/common-objections-to-full-preterism-below-the-surface/#comments
This almost sounds like Douglas is teaching that there are two different modes of salvation. Which is EXACTLY what the dispys teach. Unless he believes that we too are judged based upon our "faithfulness" instead of by the applied blood of christ's faithfulness.
Stephen Douglas
At the time of the emptying of Sheol as a result of the judgment in AD 70, the living and the those who had died before that time were judged based on their faithfulness to God.
undeception.wordpress.com/2007/11/01/common-objections-to-full-preterism-below-the-surface/#comments
Larry Siegel
Recently an article was written by Larry Siegel in response to this blog called “Why History Matters.” I do appreciate Siegel’s response, and his openness to address the issues that have been addressed on this blog. I hope there will be much benefit for those who read this correspondence and seek to understand the issues being addressed.
The key issue in this discussion with Siegle is identifying the primary focal point, or ways God reveals himself to man, and for what purpose. Siegle, in his article, charges me with “displacing historical events,” and I likewise charged him and others with displacing the spiritual events and making them secondary to the historical shadows, figures, and patterns, which God has used throughout time to reveal his true purposes. Hand in hand with this de-prioritizing of the spiritual substance to which the figures looked is considering these timeless spiritual things to be “mere past events.”
Timeless Spiritual truths ARE NOT synonymous with, and SHOULD NOT be confused with the historical events which God uses as lessons to teach them.
Historical events are shadows and types pointing to spiritual realities in Jesus Christ – notably the effectual workings of transitioning from the old to the new in Him.
The consequences of making the natural events consisting of historical timelines/events (as Siegle and preterists do) and making them really “SPIRITUAL SOMETHINGS IN THAT GENERATION” are many – but none so bad as the consequences in our own personal lives.
The revelation of this work of transition in Him is the focal point of the Word of God, and must remain the focal point. To reduce the intent of the Word to being the telling of historical events limited to a single generation entirely misses its purpose.
1.) It assumes that BOTH the types and the antitypes are representative of historical things limited by a historical period of time, in which the old things pass away (pre-70ad period) and the new things begin (post-70ad period).
2.) It assumes that ALL MEN are now partaking of the new things, since the old passes away in 70ad and the new things began in 70ad. This consistently means that ALL MEN are in the Age to Come, the New Heavens and Earth, and the New Covenant Age.
3.) It also assumes that the visible and historical transition from old to new as seen in the historical period between 30-70ad is a mere fulfilled historical event, as opposed to seeing that visible picture as even now pointing to the actual substance of Christ's work within His people, which is personal and individual.
4.) It also assumes that there are no other legitimate alternatives to the narrow, historical view. So views with a similar but different framework are quickly discarded, including the views which are not heretical or unothodox, unlike their own. Sadly, this often results in a wholesale rejection of Christianity, including church attendance and participation in a local assembly.
Siegle’s article demonstrates the many problems within preterist systems which seek to confuse the revelatory historical events with the actual spiritual truths to which they point, which cannot be limited to, or constrained by any particular time.
Siegle’s preteristic system of confusing external and historical events with the internal and spiritual work to which they point continues to obscure the true focal point and spiritual substance of the living Word by substituting it with historical events cataloged in the written word.
This is shown by Siegle’s naïve suggestion that by “devoting more time to studying and discussing the “what now?” aspect of accomplished salvation” can be profitable without “displacing historical events” from their position of primary focal point to that of rather being the “mere past events” which point to the salvation which is EVEN NOW being accomplished.
If keeping historical events as the focal point of prophecy could really “bring a genuine sense of spirituality into.. lives” it would have done so for the Jewish nation. THIS HAS NOT WORKED YET; NOR WILL IT EVER!!! In fact, to suggest such a thing seems to miss the ENTIRE PURPOSE of the historical and visible elements of the Old Covenant system – which is intended to be seen as inferior and unable to bring righteousness or proper focus. Therefore, the natural, visible and historical MUST BE DISPLACED from its primary position.
That is not to say that – when vigorously kept in its proper place – it isn't highly profitable for instruction and contrast with the true substance. Take the historical, physical bodies of believers as an example. Which true Christian would say that we must not displace it? Which glorified believer wouldn't look back and regard the unglorified body as a mere historical matter? That is not to say that we are to despise our natural bodies ; however, it MUST be vigorously kept in its place.
In Siegle’s response it seems that calling something spiritual is good enough, although any claim that I have made that historical picture reveals the spiritual transitional process from old man to new man, from earthly to heavenly is faced with harsh objection. And it is funny, that in my view the “what now?” seems to mean post-regeneration process, rather than what does the bible really mean after 70ad. So the obscure notion that historical lines somehow promote my ability to be a better Christian seems to dissipate by knowing that this process is being fulfilled within me, and is continuing to be fulfilled within others who are being born again and live in the spirit, while remaining in the flesh.
Thus while in the flesh physically, it is not a matter of something I have already obtained, or that the world at large has obtain after a historical past event occurs, but something obtained, when “that which is growing old and ready to disappear” does just that. We die!
Siegle confirms my point when he states “From a physical standpoint alone, what could a dying man hanging on a piece of wood actually accomplish for the benefit of anyone? . . . “It was the spiritual aspect of the Cross that had meaning then and now. It was the spiritual aspect of the destruction of Jerusalem that had meaning then and now.” And I echo this statement. Unless a Preterist system can properly define how the singular historical is utterly subservient to the limitless spiritual, then by this statement their system will remain worthless, and unprofitable for anyone!!! And the funny thing is, one can not answer this question with a Preterist hermeneutic!!! Their own framework prevents seeing this transition from old to new outside of one particular moment in history, hence the name “Preterist”. One can not seek the spiritual and understand its power by continuing to make a golden calf of its historical shadows and continuing to make it the primary focal point of bible prophecy. Siegle may think he gets a grace card, by calling something spiritual which is actually just “natural”, but the funny thing is he doesn't seem to really know what this means, and how it fits into what has been revealed in the history of natural Israel. If he did, he would not hesitate calling historical shadows what they really are. Shadows!
Larry Siegle Article "Why History Matters"
It is the historical event that sets the stage for those who benefit from the fulfillment of that event. If Jesus did not die at some point in time, then the event never occurred at all. Does the event save us? The redemptive event provides the basis upon which every believer obtains his or her salvation. The emphasis on the historical nature of the event is not meant to overshadow the purpose of the event, only to draw attention to the fact that God keeps His promises and fulfills His word. The history and the accomplished purpose are not mutually exclusive in nature.
Negating the historical importance of the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 for the sake of imagined spirituality is not a valid solution. Devoting more time to studying and discussing the “what now?” aspect of accomplished salvation will bring a genuine sense of spirituality into the lives of preterists everywhere. The corporate aspect of salvation does not negate the necessity of individual response. Salvation is a group plan with individual benefits!
It was the spiritual aspect of the Cross that had meaning then and now. It was the spiritual aspect of the destruction of Jerusalem that had meaning then and now. Without the spiritual aspect, history is just history–nothing more, nothing less, nothing else.
http://preterist.wordpress.com/2007/12/20/why-history-matters/
The key issue in this discussion with Siegle is identifying the primary focal point, or ways God reveals himself to man, and for what purpose. Siegle, in his article, charges me with “displacing historical events,” and I likewise charged him and others with displacing the spiritual events and making them secondary to the historical shadows, figures, and patterns, which God has used throughout time to reveal his true purposes. Hand in hand with this de-prioritizing of the spiritual substance to which the figures looked is considering these timeless spiritual things to be “mere past events.”
Timeless Spiritual truths ARE NOT synonymous with, and SHOULD NOT be confused with the historical events which God uses as lessons to teach them.
Historical events are shadows and types pointing to spiritual realities in Jesus Christ – notably the effectual workings of transitioning from the old to the new in Him.
The consequences of making the natural events consisting of historical timelines/events (as Siegle and preterists do) and making them really “SPIRITUAL SOMETHINGS IN THAT GENERATION” are many – but none so bad as the consequences in our own personal lives.
The revelation of this work of transition in Him is the focal point of the Word of God, and must remain the focal point. To reduce the intent of the Word to being the telling of historical events limited to a single generation entirely misses its purpose.
1.) It assumes that BOTH the types and the antitypes are representative of historical things limited by a historical period of time, in which the old things pass away (pre-70ad period) and the new things begin (post-70ad period).
2.) It assumes that ALL MEN are now partaking of the new things, since the old passes away in 70ad and the new things began in 70ad. This consistently means that ALL MEN are in the Age to Come, the New Heavens and Earth, and the New Covenant Age.
3.) It also assumes that the visible and historical transition from old to new as seen in the historical period between 30-70ad is a mere fulfilled historical event, as opposed to seeing that visible picture as even now pointing to the actual substance of Christ's work within His people, which is personal and individual.
4.) It also assumes that there are no other legitimate alternatives to the narrow, historical view. So views with a similar but different framework are quickly discarded, including the views which are not heretical or unothodox, unlike their own. Sadly, this often results in a wholesale rejection of Christianity, including church attendance and participation in a local assembly.
Siegle’s article demonstrates the many problems within preterist systems which seek to confuse the revelatory historical events with the actual spiritual truths to which they point, which cannot be limited to, or constrained by any particular time.
Siegle’s preteristic system of confusing external and historical events with the internal and spiritual work to which they point continues to obscure the true focal point and spiritual substance of the living Word by substituting it with historical events cataloged in the written word.
This is shown by Siegle’s naïve suggestion that by “devoting more time to studying and discussing the “what now?” aspect of accomplished salvation” can be profitable without “displacing historical events” from their position of primary focal point to that of rather being the “mere past events” which point to the salvation which is EVEN NOW being accomplished.
If keeping historical events as the focal point of prophecy could really “bring a genuine sense of spirituality into.. lives” it would have done so for the Jewish nation. THIS HAS NOT WORKED YET; NOR WILL IT EVER!!! In fact, to suggest such a thing seems to miss the ENTIRE PURPOSE of the historical and visible elements of the Old Covenant system – which is intended to be seen as inferior and unable to bring righteousness or proper focus. Therefore, the natural, visible and historical MUST BE DISPLACED from its primary position.
That is not to say that – when vigorously kept in its proper place – it isn't highly profitable for instruction and contrast with the true substance. Take the historical, physical bodies of believers as an example. Which true Christian would say that we must not displace it? Which glorified believer wouldn't look back and regard the unglorified body as a mere historical matter? That is not to say that we are to despise our natural bodies ; however, it MUST be vigorously kept in its place.
In Siegle’s response it seems that calling something spiritual is good enough, although any claim that I have made that historical picture reveals the spiritual transitional process from old man to new man, from earthly to heavenly is faced with harsh objection. And it is funny, that in my view the “what now?” seems to mean post-regeneration process, rather than what does the bible really mean after 70ad. So the obscure notion that historical lines somehow promote my ability to be a better Christian seems to dissipate by knowing that this process is being fulfilled within me, and is continuing to be fulfilled within others who are being born again and live in the spirit, while remaining in the flesh.
Thus while in the flesh physically, it is not a matter of something I have already obtained, or that the world at large has obtain after a historical past event occurs, but something obtained, when “that which is growing old and ready to disappear” does just that. We die!
Siegle confirms my point when he states “From a physical standpoint alone, what could a dying man hanging on a piece of wood actually accomplish for the benefit of anyone? . . . “It was the spiritual aspect of the Cross that had meaning then and now. It was the spiritual aspect of the destruction of Jerusalem that had meaning then and now.” And I echo this statement. Unless a Preterist system can properly define how the singular historical is utterly subservient to the limitless spiritual, then by this statement their system will remain worthless, and unprofitable for anyone!!! And the funny thing is, one can not answer this question with a Preterist hermeneutic!!! Their own framework prevents seeing this transition from old to new outside of one particular moment in history, hence the name “Preterist”. One can not seek the spiritual and understand its power by continuing to make a golden calf of its historical shadows and continuing to make it the primary focal point of bible prophecy. Siegle may think he gets a grace card, by calling something spiritual which is actually just “natural”, but the funny thing is he doesn't seem to really know what this means, and how it fits into what has been revealed in the history of natural Israel. If he did, he would not hesitate calling historical shadows what they really are. Shadows!
Larry Siegle Article "Why History Matters"
It is the historical event that sets the stage for those who benefit from the fulfillment of that event. If Jesus did not die at some point in time, then the event never occurred at all. Does the event save us? The redemptive event provides the basis upon which every believer obtains his or her salvation. The emphasis on the historical nature of the event is not meant to overshadow the purpose of the event, only to draw attention to the fact that God keeps His promises and fulfills His word. The history and the accomplished purpose are not mutually exclusive in nature.
Negating the historical importance of the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 for the sake of imagined spirituality is not a valid solution. Devoting more time to studying and discussing the “what now?” aspect of accomplished salvation will bring a genuine sense of spirituality into the lives of preterists everywhere. The corporate aspect of salvation does not negate the necessity of individual response. Salvation is a group plan with individual benefits!
It was the spiritual aspect of the Cross that had meaning then and now. It was the spiritual aspect of the destruction of Jerusalem that had meaning then and now. Without the spiritual aspect, history is just history–nothing more, nothing less, nothing else.
http://preterist.wordpress.com/2007/12/20/why-history-matters/
David Curtis "No longer a need for spiritual gifts."
David Curtis
"When that time arrived in AD 70, there was no longer a need for spiritual gifts."
http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/transcripts/eschatology/13_8-13n.htm
"When that time arrived in AD 70, there was no longer a need for spiritual gifts."
http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/transcripts/eschatology/13_8-13n.htm
Brian Simmons: Logic of Full Preterism
Brian Simmons
Our conclusion is this: that the rottenness of Full Preterism may be traced to its unwholesome logical methods. Instead of seeking to fix the error of their reasoning, Full Preterists choose to bicker over the correctness of their syllogisms. Yet the syllogism consists of propositions of facts supposed to be true. If the facts themselves be proven false or uncertain, there can be no soundness in the superstructure. Thus to argue over the correctness of syllogistic models is like offering to paint and shingle a condemned building. It is a waste of effort.
http://bsimmons74.blogspot.com/
Our conclusion is this: that the rottenness of Full Preterism may be traced to its unwholesome logical methods. Instead of seeking to fix the error of their reasoning, Full Preterists choose to bicker over the correctness of their syllogisms. Yet the syllogism consists of propositions of facts supposed to be true. If the facts themselves be proven false or uncertain, there can be no soundness in the superstructure. Thus to argue over the correctness of syllogistic models is like offering to paint and shingle a condemned building. It is a waste of effort.
http://bsimmons74.blogspot.com/
Don Preston
According to Preston, the final barriers have been removed completely for ALL MEN. The law and the power of sin was removed in 70ad. So what now stands to condemn man or separate one from God? NOTHING! Preston makes a huge assumption that that falling stones and physical nations some how removed your sin and mine? This is Universalism FOLKS! Pure and Simple!!!
Maybe Preston also applies his "mere past event" theology to "he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." Since Preston ONLY APPLIES this to the "first century generation" how is it he is not twisting the very words of Jesus by applying this to 70ad. Preston maintains "he who hears my word" can only be those alive in that time, therefore the audience relevance might seem to demand that it only applies to them.
You receiving eternal life was NOT the result of 70AD, but the result of you hearing the word, and believing on it. See how Preston misses such simple truths by creating imaginary historical lines.
Don Preston
I find it impossible to escape the conclusion that either the Great Trumpet of the Lord sounded in that first century generation or Jesus' promise failed and man still has no escape from sin, from separation from God. The Good News is, the Trumpet sounded and the final barriers between God and man were removed as God took away the last vestiges of "the law" which held the "power of sin." Man can now be fully justified and live in full assurance that "he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life" (John 5:24). Thank God for the sounding of the Great Trumpet!
http://www.eschatology.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=584&Itemid=61
Maybe Preston also applies his "mere past event" theology to "he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." Since Preston ONLY APPLIES this to the "first century generation" how is it he is not twisting the very words of Jesus by applying this to 70ad. Preston maintains "he who hears my word" can only be those alive in that time, therefore the audience relevance might seem to demand that it only applies to them.
You receiving eternal life was NOT the result of 70AD, but the result of you hearing the word, and believing on it. See how Preston misses such simple truths by creating imaginary historical lines.
Don Preston
I find it impossible to escape the conclusion that either the Great Trumpet of the Lord sounded in that first century generation or Jesus' promise failed and man still has no escape from sin, from separation from God. The Good News is, the Trumpet sounded and the final barriers between God and man were removed as God took away the last vestiges of "the law" which held the "power of sin." Man can now be fully justified and live in full assurance that "he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life" (John 5:24). Thank God for the sounding of the Great Trumpet!
http://www.eschatology.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=584&Itemid=61
Rod Edwards
Rod Edwards Interview with Gene Cook on Unchained Radio
"A lot of times, Full Preterists become Universalists." "When you add all these things up together, with the Universalism, the covenant creation, with the poor character, with the idea that the law has been destroyed, it just got too much" "Between all of the theological problems, and the textual problems, and the character problems, I just cannot support that anymore."
"A lot of times, Full Preterists become Universalists." "When you add all these things up together, with the Universalism, the covenant creation, with the poor character, with the idea that the law has been destroyed, it just got too much" "Between all of the theological problems, and the textual problems, and the character problems, I just cannot support that anymore."
Sam Dawson
Preterist's continue to make 70AD the transition line when OLD THINGS END, and NEW THINGS BEGIN. Since the OLD THINGS END (Old Covenant, Old Heavens and Earth, Old Age) pass in 70AD, ALL are then placed in the NEW THINGS (New Covenant, New Heavens and Earth, New Age). And it is interesting how these people don't see this as HIGHLY Universalistic, especially since in the New Heavens and Earth, the ONLY thing pictured is the New Jerusalem in which the tree of life resides. So if we are ALL now in the New Heavens and Earth, (whereby there is no darkness, only light), how is it there is not seperation from those who are not of God? Preterism results in ALL being found WORTHY to obtain the "age to come". They teach ALL are in the New Heavens and Earth where by "only righteousness dwells." 2 Pet 3:13.
Sam Dawson
We’ve seen the same thing in II Peter 3, popularly applied to a planet-burning judgment at the end of time. Once one sees just two things about that chapter, that 1) we live under a different heavens and earth that Noah did, yet we live under the same planet and stars as he did, then we must realize that the term “heavens and earth” is not being used of the planet and stars, and 2) when we take “elements” in that chapter to mean atoms and molecules, when it means the basics of the Mosaic Law throughout the New Testament, we must come to the conclusion that Peter foretells not the destruction of the universe, but the destruction of Jerusalem.
gospelthemes.com/res.htm
Sam Dawson
We’ve seen the same thing in II Peter 3, popularly applied to a planet-burning judgment at the end of time. Once one sees just two things about that chapter, that 1) we live under a different heavens and earth that Noah did, yet we live under the same planet and stars as he did, then we must realize that the term “heavens and earth” is not being used of the planet and stars, and 2) when we take “elements” in that chapter to mean atoms and molecules, when it means the basics of the Mosaic Law throughout the New Testament, we must come to the conclusion that Peter foretells not the destruction of the universe, but the destruction of Jerusalem.
gospelthemes.com/res.htm
Hypocrisy of Preterism: Calling the kettle black
This blogs purpose is meant to be a critical blog, devoted to challenging all aspects of Preterism. Some of the aspects of Preterism are in fact heretical and some doctrines have many dangerous implications which is consistently shown throughout this blog. This problem is seen almost in all Preterist circles, and becomes visible in almost all Preterist writings. Some Preterists wish, that everyone would just put on their kind of glasses, based on the mistaken premise that they are right, and that somehow by putting on their glasses, the world would magically become a better place. This is wishful thinking on the part of Preterists. It is WRONG in my opinion, to not challenge doctrines, and it is WRONG to base an entire system based on compounded theories, deductions, and assumptions that prophecy was completely fulfilled in the realms of history. I purposely use the terms "theories, deductions, and assumptions" because not one scripture says anything occurred spiritually or naturally in the course of history. So as a Preterist, I must assume, or infer something is true, without a written word to prove it. This is not what faith is or how it works. Faith is not believing something that is just not there.
Full Preterists are quite aggressive and are quick to attack those who hold opposing views. They are also quite forceful and critical of those who disagree with them even to the degree of cutting off all fellowship. Everyone wants to debate you, everyone wants to prove they are right. Even those who hold a slightly different view are still outcasts. This is seen among Full Preterists who still see those who are Partial Preterists as a lower type of Christian, if a Christian at all. They certainly would have a hard time sitting at the same table. This past year Preterism has reached newest all time lows, (not because of the quantity of people who have now become addicted or infected with this doctrine), but because of the great division that is readily seen among various Preterist groups. I personally have never witnessed a more divided group that the sect who calls themselves Preterists.
Those who think my methods are off base, unchristian, or misguided, please refer to the movement who taught them to me. How to be right. How to not be taken captive by my enemy. How to focus on the weaknesses of my enemies. How to not lose a debate. How to misinterpret others viewpoints. And on and on the list could grow. This site is a reflection of the same methods and tactics that Preterist have used towards futurists, toward partial preterists, and even among themselves and it is true that the same methods used to build up a movement will also be used on this blog to tare it down. How appropriate. The rebukes I receive are just a reflection of calling the kettle black.
Full Preterists are quite aggressive and are quick to attack those who hold opposing views. They are also quite forceful and critical of those who disagree with them even to the degree of cutting off all fellowship. Everyone wants to debate you, everyone wants to prove they are right. Even those who hold a slightly different view are still outcasts. This is seen among Full Preterists who still see those who are Partial Preterists as a lower type of Christian, if a Christian at all. They certainly would have a hard time sitting at the same table. This past year Preterism has reached newest all time lows, (not because of the quantity of people who have now become addicted or infected with this doctrine), but because of the great division that is readily seen among various Preterist groups. I personally have never witnessed a more divided group that the sect who calls themselves Preterists.
Those who think my methods are off base, unchristian, or misguided, please refer to the movement who taught them to me. How to be right. How to not be taken captive by my enemy. How to focus on the weaknesses of my enemies. How to not lose a debate. How to misinterpret others viewpoints. And on and on the list could grow. This site is a reflection of the same methods and tactics that Preterist have used towards futurists, toward partial preterists, and even among themselves and it is true that the same methods used to build up a movement will also be used on this blog to tare it down. How appropriate. The rebukes I receive are just a reflection of calling the kettle black.
Historical Transitions from Old to New
It is shown in this statement how Preterist see a transition from old things to new things in the realms of history. It is often overlooked by Preterist that this transition from OLD to NEW really occurs as one passes from the OLD MAN to the NEW MAN by being born again, and is consummated when one dies and puts off "first tabernacle". That "first tabernacle" not being the physical temple of sticks and stones, but is referring to our fleshly bodies which waxes old and ready to disappear. (1 Peter 1:24) For, "All flesh is like grass, And all its glory like the flower of grass. The grass withers, And the flower falls off . .
The transition period of the gospel consistantly transitions the of putting off of flesh (covenant of death), and putting on the spirit (covenant of life) and places it outside the context of historical fulfillment. Being born again is not something that is historical fulfilled or a past event. Being born again means dying to our old man. However, when we die to the flesh by being born again, or physical bodies do not die. Our physical bodies are still present, after we are born again, but our body is alive becuase of the Spirit which is in us. Those born again become a part of the new covenant or new creation, but the old covenant (of the flesh) remains in tact until the flesh has been removed or passes away.
As Paul says in II Tim. 4:6 THE TIME of my departure IS AT HAND. This statement can not be refering to 70ad but a consumation of physical death and entry into heaven. There is no escaping the fact the war Paul saw waging war within him was a war between flesh and spirit. Paul was proving that the covenantal transitions is not historical but the revealing a individual process of maturing ones faith to be found worthy and faithful to enter into the age to come.
Thinking about this transition as merely a natural process in history has many problems. First, it fails you and me, since it places this transition as a historic regeneration or transition rather than a individual regeneration or transition. Thus 70ad is what separates the old from the new rather than Christ. It also implys that the OLD has been removed for all men, and assumes that this process of transition is a mere past event. It also implys that since the old has been removed, there is no longer seperation from God, no more death, no more judgment, no longer a need to be born again, and no longer a need to be resurected into the presense of God. Making history the transition point continues to reveal the countless number of errors that compound the problem.
New Earth Christian Studies
If they were looking forward to something, waiting eagerly for it, then they did not yet possess it in its fullness. And yet, there was always a sense in which they already owned it. They had the down payment. It was not that the New Covenant had not yet begun: It had, but it was not in full effect, until the Old Covenant was utterly destroyed. They were free of it's burden of slavery, but until the first tabernacle was removed, the way into the Holy Place and complete access to God was not disclosed. The Christians of the time were in a unique position: They were living not just between covenants, but in the end times of the Old Covenant which coincided with the beginning of the New.
http://www.geocities.com/newearthcs/main.html
The transition period of the gospel consistantly transitions the of putting off of flesh (covenant of death), and putting on the spirit (covenant of life) and places it outside the context of historical fulfillment. Being born again is not something that is historical fulfilled or a past event. Being born again means dying to our old man. However, when we die to the flesh by being born again, or physical bodies do not die. Our physical bodies are still present, after we are born again, but our body is alive becuase of the Spirit which is in us. Those born again become a part of the new covenant or new creation, but the old covenant (of the flesh) remains in tact until the flesh has been removed or passes away.
As Paul says in II Tim. 4:6 THE TIME of my departure IS AT HAND. This statement can not be refering to 70ad but a consumation of physical death and entry into heaven. There is no escaping the fact the war Paul saw waging war within him was a war between flesh and spirit. Paul was proving that the covenantal transitions is not historical but the revealing a individual process of maturing ones faith to be found worthy and faithful to enter into the age to come.
Thinking about this transition as merely a natural process in history has many problems. First, it fails you and me, since it places this transition as a historic regeneration or transition rather than a individual regeneration or transition. Thus 70ad is what separates the old from the new rather than Christ. It also implys that the OLD has been removed for all men, and assumes that this process of transition is a mere past event. It also implys that since the old has been removed, there is no longer seperation from God, no more death, no more judgment, no longer a need to be born again, and no longer a need to be resurected into the presense of God. Making history the transition point continues to reveal the countless number of errors that compound the problem.
New Earth Christian Studies
If they were looking forward to something, waiting eagerly for it, then they did not yet possess it in its fullness. And yet, there was always a sense in which they already owned it. They had the down payment. It was not that the New Covenant had not yet begun: It had, but it was not in full effect, until the Old Covenant was utterly destroyed. They were free of it's burden of slavery, but until the first tabernacle was removed, the way into the Holy Place and complete access to God was not disclosed. The Christians of the time were in a unique position: They were living not just between covenants, but in the end times of the Old Covenant which coincided with the beginning of the New.
http://www.geocities.com/newearthcs/main.html
Walt Hibbard: Literally Fulfilled in AD70
This is actually quite funny! I especially love the part about "ALL WOULD TAKE PLACE LITERALLY" in 70AD!!! LOL. What ever happen to those who fled Jerusalem to Pella? IC, Literally, THIS IS THAT!
Walt Hibbard Article: The Expectation and Logic of a ‘Literal Catching Up’ at AD 70
preteristviewpoint.com/id64.html
Walt Hibbard Article: The Expectation and Logic of a ‘Literal Catching Up’ at AD 70
The Second Coming of Christ, the Resurrection of the Dead from out of Hades, the Judgment of the Sheep and the Goats, the Marriage Supper of the Lamb – all would take place literally and coinciding with the Roman armies march, immediately after the tribulation of those days. For then “the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first. When we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air (I Thess. 4:16-17). This was a literal “catching up” of all true believers on earth at that time.
preteristviewpoint.com/id64.html
Don Preston
And Don Preston says he does not believe Universalism to be biblical? Let's see, "darkness and death" destroyed in 70AD. The "New Day of Salvation" or the new covenant "fully came in 70AD". This can only mean that ALL MEN are now in the "New Day of Salvation" or the "New Covenant" especially since Christ returned in finality of judgment, and the "Old World of darkness and death" ended and was destroyed in 70AD. This again shows the failure of Preterism to fully understand the problems with using a line in history to seperate the old things from the new things.
Don Preston Article: The Day Has Come
The New Day was to come when Jesus as Messenger of the Covenant fulfilled the punitive measures of the Old Covenant in destroying his enemies in the day of fire, Malachi 3:1-3; 4:1-6; the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord. Since John, as Elijah, knew that Great Day of Wrath was imminent it therefore follows that the New Day that was to follow that Day of Judgment was imminent also.
I believe the only scenario that satisfies the teaching of the Old and New Covenants concerning the Dawning of the New Day is when Christ returned in judgment, destroying the Old World of Darkness and Death, II Corinthians 3. This patently was not on Pentecost; the New Testament writers, writing after Pentecost saw the Day as still future, but imminent, I Peter 4:5,7; James 5:7-9.
The New Day fully came in 70 AD when Jesus returned in judgment of the Old World of Darkness and brought the New Day of Salvation. The Day has come.
Don Preston Article: The Day Has Come
The New Day was to come when Jesus as Messenger of the Covenant fulfilled the punitive measures of the Old Covenant in destroying his enemies in the day of fire, Malachi 3:1-3; 4:1-6; the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord. Since John, as Elijah, knew that Great Day of Wrath was imminent it therefore follows that the New Day that was to follow that Day of Judgment was imminent also.
I believe the only scenario that satisfies the teaching of the Old and New Covenants concerning the Dawning of the New Day is when Christ returned in judgment, destroying the Old World of Darkness and Death, II Corinthians 3. This patently was not on Pentecost; the New Testament writers, writing after Pentecost saw the Day as still future, but imminent, I Peter 4:5,7; James 5:7-9.
The New Day fully came in 70 AD when Jesus returned in judgment of the Old World of Darkness and brought the New Day of Salvation. The Day has come.
http://www.eschatology.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=135&Itemid=61
Ed Stevens: The age about to come is just another historical period
I love how Stevens says "the age about to come" was to be eternal in 70ad by maintaining it was a post-70AD period. How can something become eternal in 70ad? What was eternal by a historical period of time? It is also funny to see how Stevens describes this "transition period" between the new and old as if it was a dispensational line tied to the year 70AD. What Stevens misses, is the transition from the Old to the New as one is born again in Christ. The old man of the flesh (which is what all old things symbolized) is transformed into the new man renewed by the Spirit (which is what all new things symbolize). This is the transition process which never ceases and is in fact the eternal thing which Stevens sadly defines as a historic period. This is what the exodus symbolizes. It symbolizes our transition from the old man to the new man. Of leaving bondage, and entering into the rest in Christ. That which dies in the wilderness, the unbelieving generation" is not the first century generation, but the generation who resides in the covenant of death, whose desire of the flesh over the desire for God.
Ed Stevens
That 40-year period between Pentecost and Holocaust was just a transition phase between “this age” and “the age about to come.” It is “the age about to come” that was to be the eternal one. We have several examples of 40-year transitional periods in the OT (wilderness wandering, David’s reign, etc.). According to Moses and the prophets the transition between the two ages was not supposed to be eternal, nor even a long protracted period. Gentry has missed the significance of the transition period, and confused the passages about the transition period with those about the eternal kingdom.
http://www.preterist.org/articles/gentry/a_40-yr_millenium.asp
Ed Stevens
That 40-year period between Pentecost and Holocaust was just a transition phase between “this age” and “the age about to come.” It is “the age about to come” that was to be the eternal one. We have several examples of 40-year transitional periods in the OT (wilderness wandering, David’s reign, etc.). According to Moses and the prophets the transition between the two ages was not supposed to be eternal, nor even a long protracted period. Gentry has missed the significance of the transition period, and confused the passages about the transition period with those about the eternal kingdom.
http://www.preterist.org/articles/gentry/a_40-yr_millenium.asp
Don Preston
Revelation is about the revealing of the removal of sin and death (not the removal itself), and the revealing of life in his kingdom (not that the event gave eternal life ). Sin and death is the issue, and can not be destroyed or removed by historical events. This removal or posession can not be a past or future event that is removed by historical events. The destruction of Jerusalem did not place you in the new covenant, nor did it remove your sin, death or seperation from God. If it did, there would be no reason to be born again. You were or have been in bondage to the flesh (covenant of death represented by the Mosiac Covenant) and if you are in Christ, you have been born again to the New Covenant of the Spirit. How is this process a past event, how did the old pass in 70ad, when you died to the old by being born again.
Don Preston Article More On No Death, No Sorrow, No Pain
We believe the only view which does not pose such serious interpretative snafus is that which sees the New Creation as the consummated Kingdom of our Lord in which those who believe in him do not die, John 8:51; in which there is peace, Phil 4:4ff; there is eternal life 1 John 5:13; in which God's new people, Ephesians 2:12ff; wearing his new name, Is. 65/I Peter 4; offer up spiritual sacrifices in the New Temple, I Peter 2:5; Heb. 13:15f. This New World was consummated when God destroyed his old people, Isaiah 65:13ff, the Old Jerusalem; the Old Heavens and Earth of Judaism, Isaiah 51:15-16; bringing to a close the Old World (Age, Matthew 24:3) and bringing to glorious perfection, 1 Cor. 13:8, the New World. That time was when Jesus returned and destroyed the capital and hub of the Old World, Jerusalem, in A.D. 70.
http://www.eschatology.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=308&Itemid=61
Don Preston Article More On No Death, No Sorrow, No Pain
We believe the only view which does not pose such serious interpretative snafus is that which sees the New Creation as the consummated Kingdom of our Lord in which those who believe in him do not die, John 8:51; in which there is peace, Phil 4:4ff; there is eternal life 1 John 5:13; in which God's new people, Ephesians 2:12ff; wearing his new name, Is. 65/I Peter 4; offer up spiritual sacrifices in the New Temple, I Peter 2:5; Heb. 13:15f. This New World was consummated when God destroyed his old people, Isaiah 65:13ff, the Old Jerusalem; the Old Heavens and Earth of Judaism, Isaiah 51:15-16; bringing to a close the Old World (Age, Matthew 24:3) and bringing to glorious perfection, 1 Cor. 13:8, the New World. That time was when Jesus returned and destroyed the capital and hub of the Old World, Jerusalem, in A.D. 70.
http://www.eschatology.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=308&Itemid=61
Sjolander Road Fellowship
It is interesting that this article appeals to redemptive history, but then goes on to say "Not all these promises were fulfilled in the physical realm and not all were therefore discernible by everyone." Am I the only one who sees this as ironic or better yet moronic? Preterist claim "redemptive history" but them claim that you can see it, becuase it is spiritual, or it is really in the eternal realm. I ask how is this redemptive history, if it is in fact spiritual, and can not be seen. If it is spiritual and can't be seen, how can it be a mere past event that occured in 70AD.
Stephen Douglas??? Sjolander Road Fellowship
Historically, we know that the destruction of Jerusalem took place in the year 70 AD. This event has long been recognized as significant to the Jewish people because in that year they ceased to exist as a nation in their promised land. What has been often lost is the overriding significance of this event in redemptive history. In the careful evaluation of the Olivet discourse, one sees that the AD 70 destruction was actually the culmination of God’s total redemptive plan. In this event are included all the eschatological promises of the Bible. Not all these promises were fulfilled in the physical realm and not all were therefore discernible by everyone. Some saw but did not realize what they saw. Only those who were looking with the right “minds eye” made the proper connection.
http://www.knowingtodaysgod.com/articles/Significance%20of%20AD%2070%20in%20the%20History%20of%20Mankind.htm
Stephen Douglas??? Sjolander Road Fellowship
Historically, we know that the destruction of Jerusalem took place in the year 70 AD. This event has long been recognized as significant to the Jewish people because in that year they ceased to exist as a nation in their promised land. What has been often lost is the overriding significance of this event in redemptive history. In the careful evaluation of the Olivet discourse, one sees that the AD 70 destruction was actually the culmination of God’s total redemptive plan. In this event are included all the eschatological promises of the Bible. Not all these promises were fulfilled in the physical realm and not all were therefore discernible by everyone. Some saw but did not realize what they saw. Only those who were looking with the right “minds eye” made the proper connection.
http://www.knowingtodaysgod.com/articles/Significance%20of%20AD%2070%20in%20the%20History%20of%20Mankind.htm
Stephen Douglas: No Future Judgment of All Humanity
Some preterist continue to show their historical focus which shows their narrow and natural thinking mindset. Symbols deployed in the parables have nothing to do with our hearts or about judging the thoughts of men, but are really just symbolic of physical nations, and groups of people. How much more can scripture be marginalized by Preterist who proclaim spiritual things are really just symbolic of visible and natural types. Not only that, Douglas excludes the possibility of judgement continuing after 70AD by saying this parable is NOT ABOUT "judgment of all humanity throughout history" Now, if Jesus is not speaking about the hearts of men, and is really just concerned with physical nations, and groups of people which existed long ago, what relevance does this have for us today. NONE!
Stephen Douglas
So the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats isn’t about a future judgment of all humanity throughout history — but what is it about? Chiefly, this parable is yet another proclamation of the irrelevance of race in the New Covenant. It is remarkably parallel to the parables of the Wedding Banquet and the Ten Virgins (the latter which Jesus recounted immediately prior to the Sheep and the Goats parable), in which the importance of ethnic Israel is shown to pass away with the Old Covenant. This story was meant to rankle the Jewish leaders of the time. For them, the only imaginable outcome of this judgment was that the division of sheep and goats would go straight down the line: Law-keeping Israel as the sheep, all other nations as the goats. Yet shockingly, in what I think is probably the primary point of the parable, Jesus puts all nations on equal footing, scandalously lumps Jew and Gentile together, and determines who are wicked and who are righteous based on His own standard, a right He has as the King Who came (cf. Daniel 7:13, “He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him.”). The discerning Shepherd distinguished acts of compassion prompted and empowered by regenerate believers from rote implementation of a particular race’s rules and regulations, discriminated behavior from ethnicity, and this is how the Shepherd determined who was who.
undeception.wordpress.com/2007/11/17/the-sheep-the-goats-and-the-judgment/
Stephen Douglas
So the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats isn’t about a future judgment of all humanity throughout history — but what is it about? Chiefly, this parable is yet another proclamation of the irrelevance of race in the New Covenant. It is remarkably parallel to the parables of the Wedding Banquet and the Ten Virgins (the latter which Jesus recounted immediately prior to the Sheep and the Goats parable), in which the importance of ethnic Israel is shown to pass away with the Old Covenant. This story was meant to rankle the Jewish leaders of the time. For them, the only imaginable outcome of this judgment was that the division of sheep and goats would go straight down the line: Law-keeping Israel as the sheep, all other nations as the goats. Yet shockingly, in what I think is probably the primary point of the parable, Jesus puts all nations on equal footing, scandalously lumps Jew and Gentile together, and determines who are wicked and who are righteous based on His own standard, a right He has as the King Who came (cf. Daniel 7:13, “He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him.”). The discerning Shepherd distinguished acts of compassion prompted and empowered by regenerate believers from rote implementation of a particular race’s rules and regulations, discriminated behavior from ethnicity, and this is how the Shepherd determined who was who.
undeception.wordpress.com/2007/11/17/the-sheep-the-goats-and-the-judgment/
Ron McRay
Ron McRay
Since I am a heretic, I am accustomed to being in the minority. If I could persuade everyone to agree with me, I would not be a heretic. We are fortunate that we can be heretics without any danger of being burned at the stake. The world needs a new crop of young heretics.
Since most of us are old, it is up to the young heretics to find new heresies to guide the way to a more hopeful future.
http://www.eschatologyreview.com/hereticneeded.htm
Since I am a heretic, I am accustomed to being in the minority. If I could persuade everyone to agree with me, I would not be a heretic. We are fortunate that we can be heretics without any danger of being burned at the stake. The world needs a new crop of young heretics.
Since most of us are old, it is up to the young heretics to find new heresies to guide the way to a more hopeful future.
http://www.eschatologyreview.com/hereticneeded.htm
Greg Simon
I am not sure if this is a misprint "it has nothing to do with redemption in the spiritual sense" or if Simon meant to say this.
Preterist continue missing the mark on saying the OLD ended in 70ad and the NEW began in 70ad. They are trying so hard to think spiritually, but stumble over the use of the physical non-spiritual things which are said to really be spiritual. What is funny is Preterists can tell you it is spiritual, but don't really understand what that means. It is JUST SPIRITUAL, DUH! And that means what to me? How does just saying something is spiritual become a blessing to you or to me. How does it transform our lives into the image of Christ? If you are calling natural things (which are really just shadows) call them by what they really are, natural things. But don't call spiritual things natural things without doing some better explaining.
I would agree with Simon "The changeover from old covenant to new covenant is so significant, it forms the crux of the entire gospel message." But I disagree if he places this transition in 70 AD rather than a transition in Christ from the old man to the new man.
Greg Simon
The changeover from old covenant to new covenant is so significant, it forms the crux of the entire gospel message. There is no need for a global destruction - it has nothing to do with redemption in the spiritual sense. Only destruction of the old covenant has any real meaning for Christians. For the Jews (Israel after the flesh), their entire world, their 'heavens and earth', would be judged and destroyed. For the Christians (Israel after the spirit, the true Israel), a new 'heavens and earth' were to be created. Physically speaking, the Jews of that generation were to take the punishment on behalf of all mankind (Matthew 23:34-36). Physically speaking, the temple as the centre of worship and Jerusalem as the focus of the covenant were to be destroyed, left desolate (Matthew 23:37-39). But spiritually speaking, the way was paved for all mankind for a new creation, a new heavens and earth.
http://www.geocities.com/newearthcs/main.html
Preterist continue missing the mark on saying the OLD ended in 70ad and the NEW began in 70ad. They are trying so hard to think spiritually, but stumble over the use of the physical non-spiritual things which are said to really be spiritual. What is funny is Preterists can tell you it is spiritual, but don't really understand what that means. It is JUST SPIRITUAL, DUH! And that means what to me? How does just saying something is spiritual become a blessing to you or to me. How does it transform our lives into the image of Christ? If you are calling natural things (which are really just shadows) call them by what they really are, natural things. But don't call spiritual things natural things without doing some better explaining.
I would agree with Simon "The changeover from old covenant to new covenant is so significant, it forms the crux of the entire gospel message." But I disagree if he places this transition in 70 AD rather than a transition in Christ from the old man to the new man.
Greg Simon
The changeover from old covenant to new covenant is so significant, it forms the crux of the entire gospel message. There is no need for a global destruction - it has nothing to do with redemption in the spiritual sense. Only destruction of the old covenant has any real meaning for Christians. For the Jews (Israel after the flesh), their entire world, their 'heavens and earth', would be judged and destroyed. For the Christians (Israel after the spirit, the true Israel), a new 'heavens and earth' were to be created. Physically speaking, the Jews of that generation were to take the punishment on behalf of all mankind (Matthew 23:34-36). Physically speaking, the temple as the centre of worship and Jerusalem as the focus of the covenant were to be destroyed, left desolate (Matthew 23:37-39). But spiritually speaking, the way was paved for all mankind for a new creation, a new heavens and earth.
http://www.geocities.com/newearthcs/main.html
Greg Simon
Greg Simon New Earth Christian Studies
I do not presume to tell God what is fair and what is not. He, in his mercy and righteousness, will deal with people as He chooses. It may be that there is a punishment of torment awaiting 'sinners', but if there is, I do not believe the above Scriptures are where it is revealed. Rather, they speak of something at least equally significant: God's dealing with Mankind and the establishing of a New Covenant of freedom that replaces the obsolete covenant of slavery (Galatians 4:22-31)
http://www.geocities.com/newearthcs/main.html
I do not presume to tell God what is fair and what is not. He, in his mercy and righteousness, will deal with people as He chooses. It may be that there is a punishment of torment awaiting 'sinners', but if there is, I do not believe the above Scriptures are where it is revealed. Rather, they speak of something at least equally significant: God's dealing with Mankind and the establishing of a New Covenant of freedom that replaces the obsolete covenant of slavery (Galatians 4:22-31)
http://www.geocities.com/newearthcs/main.html
Creeds of Full Preterism
After studying the prophesies and expectations of the people who received the words of Jesus and the apostles, we concluded the following:
1. The judgement on Jerusalem in AD70 fulfilled all prophesies of judgement in the old and new testaments.
2. Jesus' parousia was accomplished at this time.
3. The "end", "end of the age", "end of all things" and other terms all refer to the end of the old system of worship, rejected by God in favour of the new covenant made though Jesus Christ.
The judgement, destruction of death and the grave, the resurrection of the dead to eternal destruction in the lake and to everlasting life all coincided with this coming of Jesus 'on the clouds'.
4. Therefore, we today are living in the new heavens and earth, have immediate access to eternal life upon our own passing, and are citizens of the new Jerusalem, wedded once and for all to the perfect groom: Jesus.
5. Death, 'Satan', mourning and suffering are destroyed for us (True!).
6. Those who are not a part of this citizenship are cast out of God's kingdom, into the eternal separation of the outer darkness, having no share in the gift of eternal life.
http://www.geocities.com/newearthcs/main.html
1. The judgement on Jerusalem in AD70 fulfilled all prophesies of judgement in the old and new testaments.
2. Jesus' parousia was accomplished at this time.
3. The "end", "end of the age", "end of all things" and other terms all refer to the end of the old system of worship, rejected by God in favour of the new covenant made though Jesus Christ.
The judgement, destruction of death and the grave, the resurrection of the dead to eternal destruction in the lake and to everlasting life all coincided with this coming of Jesus 'on the clouds'.
4. Therefore, we today are living in the new heavens and earth, have immediate access to eternal life upon our own passing, and are citizens of the new Jerusalem, wedded once and for all to the perfect groom: Jesus.
5. Death, 'Satan', mourning and suffering are destroyed for us (True!).
6. Those who are not a part of this citizenship are cast out of God's kingdom, into the eternal separation of the outer darkness, having no share in the gift of eternal life.
http://www.geocities.com/newearthcs/main.html
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