Fred "(1 Corinthians 15:20-22) 20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have died. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead also came through a man. 22 For just as in Adam all die, so also all will be made alive in Christ.
The thing to consider about verse 22 is that it says, “in Adam all die” not all are dead. Paul is still talking about physical (biological) death here. I question the idea of ‘spiritual death’. That is a theological term not a Biblical one. For almost thirty years, I believed in spiritual death and I know all of the theological arguments for it. At least most of them. Just because Adam did not die the day he ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil most assume he had to have spiritually died. The threat of death toward Adam was real but God was not about to fulfill it. First of all, the severity of the threat was to let Adam know the importance of it and secondly had Adam died then there would not have been any redemption for man. Adam did die as a result of his disobedience just as all others after him did, with the exception of Enoch and Elijah.
I will admit all are born with a depraved nature that leans toward sin and are in need of the salvation Christ performed on the cross. Christ’s blood must be applied to them.
1 Corinthians 15:31
31 Every day I am in danger of death! This is as sure as my boasting in you, brothers and sisters, which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord.
How could Paul be in danger of death every day if this was speaking of spiritual death? It would make no sense. It was physical death that he was in danger of.
1 Corinthians 15:48-49
48 Like the one made of dust, so too are those made of dust, and like the one from heaven, so too those who are heavenly. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, let us also bear the image of the man of heaven.
I doubt Paul is speaking spiritually here. We have all borne the image of the man of the dust. I see that referring to our whole being, our body and mind. We are fit for this world, to travel and communicate with earthly things. Our spiritual body will be fit for heaven."
planetpreterist.com/news-5282.html#32859
I will admit to you that full-preterists are all over the map
Jesse like many other preterists want to think they can't error or go astray. It is part of their delusion. Making comments like Jesse makes shows that you have swallowed their doctrine hook, line, and sinker. If you have swallowed Preterism whole, then the Berean spirit ceases when you stop challenging and asking questions. You can't claim to be a Berean if you have arrived at the destination. Preterists call themselves Berean but they are not. They have settled in to a view and built walls around it and refused to listen to anything else. This is a warning, a red flag, a sign that you need to flee.
Jesse Ahmann
"Preterist don't teach anything that is contrary to Scripture"
AND YET
"I will admit to you that full-preterists are all over the map concerning baptism, Lord's supper, resurrection, rapture, and salvation."
willnotdelay.blogspot.com/2008/07/please-post-your-preterist-lyrics-for.html
Jesse Ahmann
"Preterist don't teach anything that is contrary to Scripture"
AND YET
"I will admit to you that full-preterists are all over the map concerning baptism, Lord's supper, resurrection, rapture, and salvation."
willnotdelay.blogspot.com/2008/07/please-post-your-preterist-lyrics-for.html
NERO does not fit! So we must acquit.
"I don't want to be too sweeping in my statement about this, but, I have yet to see a Preterist interpret this in a non-laugh-inspiring manner. Their system is based on Nero being that man of sin, but Nero did not do anything like what the prophecy requires.
He probably never even journeyed close to Jerusalem. Much less did he take up residence in the temple.I don't believe there's a pre-70 AD referent that can be used to hang this prophecy on Nero, or any of the Roman emperors, for that matter. The closest I've seen anyone come is to point out that Caligula at one point desired to have a bust of himself placed in the Holy of Holies. He thought better of it once he realized he'd surely have a full-scale uprising on his hands if he did. But really, we're supposed to believe that an aborted plan is close enough? Are we playing Horseshoes here?
Additionally, Paul specifies that the man of sin would meet his end by being destroyed by the "brightness" of Christ's coming. (2 Thessalonians 2:8.) What do you think? Will the Preterist try to say that Nero's violent death represents another cloud/judgment coming of Christ? Certainly. So, I guess we've got another cloud-coming every time anyone on the planet dies.
And never mind that nagging detail about the brightness of it, which would seem to refer to something like visible glory.
Bottom line, Nero never claimed to be the God of the Jews. He preferred to be considered as Apollo, if memory serves. Nero never took a seat in the temple of God, claiming to be the God of that temple. He simply cannot be this man of sin, the son of perdition."
http://gordansplace.blogspot.com/2008/07/preterist-problems-11.html
He probably never even journeyed close to Jerusalem. Much less did he take up residence in the temple.I don't believe there's a pre-70 AD referent that can be used to hang this prophecy on Nero, or any of the Roman emperors, for that matter. The closest I've seen anyone come is to point out that Caligula at one point desired to have a bust of himself placed in the Holy of Holies. He thought better of it once he realized he'd surely have a full-scale uprising on his hands if he did. But really, we're supposed to believe that an aborted plan is close enough? Are we playing Horseshoes here?
Additionally, Paul specifies that the man of sin would meet his end by being destroyed by the "brightness" of Christ's coming. (2 Thessalonians 2:8.) What do you think? Will the Preterist try to say that Nero's violent death represents another cloud/judgment coming of Christ? Certainly. So, I guess we've got another cloud-coming every time anyone on the planet dies.
And never mind that nagging detail about the brightness of it, which would seem to refer to something like visible glory.
Bottom line, Nero never claimed to be the God of the Jews. He preferred to be considered as Apollo, if memory serves. Nero never took a seat in the temple of God, claiming to be the God of that temple. He simply cannot be this man of sin, the son of perdition."
http://gordansplace.blogspot.com/2008/07/preterist-problems-11.html
Michael Bennett: Great White Throne Judgment of AD70
Michael Bennett "IF: Satan is thrown into the Lake at the beginning of the GWT judgment. AND: The Great White Throne Judgment happens at AD70 (before some standing there tasted death) / (books opened when the power of the holy people was shattered). THEN: Satan was thrown into the lake at the beginning of the GWT Judgment and had to have happened at AD70.
As a preterist there is no way around the fact that Satan was thrown into the lake of fire at the START of the Great White Throne Judgment of AD70. I conclude that the 1000 years that John was writing about is the same event that Peter was writing about when he said one day is as 1000 years and 1000 years is as one day. John did not write about things outside of things ABOUT TO (mello) occur. Therefore: The 1000 years was the transition period and fits PERFECTLY with the logical proof above, that the Devil was thrown in the Lake of Fire at the beginning of the AD70 judgment."
preterism.ning.com/profiles/blog/show?id=1632544%3ABlogPost%3A13449
As a preterist there is no way around the fact that Satan was thrown into the lake of fire at the START of the Great White Throne Judgment of AD70. I conclude that the 1000 years that John was writing about is the same event that Peter was writing about when he said one day is as 1000 years and 1000 years is as one day. John did not write about things outside of things ABOUT TO (mello) occur. Therefore: The 1000 years was the transition period and fits PERFECTLY with the logical proof above, that the Devil was thrown in the Lake of Fire at the beginning of the AD70 judgment."
preterism.ning.com/profiles/blog/show?id=1632544%3ABlogPost%3A13449
Though Paul died in 68AD, He had to WAIT two years before receiving his Crown
Charles Julius Guiteau. The Truth; a Companion to the Bible. 1879.
"Yes, yes, thou Paul, waited only two years for thy "crown." Thou wert executed AD 68, and thy Master came at the destruction of Jerusalem, AD70, and gavest thee thy "crown" (Guiteau, p. 30)
(2 Timothy 4:7-8) I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith; in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.
So I guess this answers the question, that Paul looked toward 70AD and not towards the reward he would receive upon crossing the finish line. Brilliant!
Here Ed Stevens making the SAME EXACT CLAIM as Guiteau. Funny Stuff.
___________________________________________________________
Footnote "Guiteau's book "The Truth; a Companion to the Bible" was almost entirely plagiarized from the work of John Humphrey Noyes." "Charles Julius Guiteau was an American lawyer who assassinated U.S. President James A. Garfield on July 2, 1881. He was executed by hanging." "Guiteau then decided that God had commanded him to kill the ungrateful President."
"Yes, yes, thou Paul, waited only two years for thy "crown." Thou wert executed AD 68, and thy Master came at the destruction of Jerusalem, AD70, and gavest thee thy "crown" (Guiteau, p. 30)
(2 Timothy 4:7-8) I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith; in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.
So I guess this answers the question, that Paul looked toward 70AD and not towards the reward he would receive upon crossing the finish line. Brilliant!
Here Ed Stevens making the SAME EXACT CLAIM as Guiteau. Funny Stuff.
___________________________________________________________
Footnote "Guiteau's book "The Truth; a Companion to the Bible" was almost entirely plagiarized from the work of John Humphrey Noyes." "Charles Julius Guiteau was an American lawyer who assassinated U.S. President James A. Garfield on July 2, 1881. He was executed by hanging." "Guiteau then decided that God had commanded him to kill the ungrateful President."
Virgil Vaduva: Bye bye body of death. Hello new body of life. Thank God for 70AD!
Virgil Vaduva "Throughout Romans 8 Paul is creating the tension between Old Covenant (Law, Old Creation) and the New Covenant (New Creation) in which "the redemption of OUR BODY (singular) will take place (temporally focused on horizontal dualism). He is even using the imagery of birth (the entire creation was in birth pains) UNTIL NOW. (with Preterism, you must keep in mind that the first century's hope was 70AD, so any future phases had 70AD, AND ONLY 70AD, in mind. Hyper-Preterist believe since all prophecy was fulfilled, the bible DOES NOT SPEAK BEYOND THAT PERIOD. Again Preterism passes off our struggles, our pains, and tribulations in the flesh and makes it about THEM, NOT US. Another trick of Satan. How mistaken they are to conclude that the body in birth pains was the "Jewish law, the body of death", and not point it to body of flesh which is at constant war and struggle with our spirit.)
The New Creation which was ready to be born while Paul was writing Romans happened in the first century. Remember, the Jewish temple was the ultimate standing symbol of the Jewish law, the body of death, the place where animals were being sacrificed on our behalf. That body of death WAS destroyed and a new body of Christ (the Church) finally WAS inaugurated (in 70AD) into God's presence; only in this body can one find life. The Church is the New Creation, the New Jerusalem, the New Israel, the new "living body.""
krusekronicle.typepad.com/kruse_kronicle/2008/05/the-earth-destr.html
"How much" a person sins has nothing to do with Christ defeating "the sin" and "the death" of Adam
Preterism tries to make a dividing line between "the sin" and "sin" and "the death" and "death" and tries to make these two separate issues. If "the sin" was defeated in 70AD would not the effects of "the sin" be limited in such a way that it could not rule over our lives OR the lives of the world. What is the purpose of being called out of the world, if we desire to remain in it? Clearly a horizontal view for sure that leads to fleshly thinking. No historical moment in time can remove that which is not historical. Man has the choice to die to the world below or live in it. Christ's work IS WITHIN US NOT OUTSIDE OF US. His righteousness DOES NOT MAKE us righteous, but allows us to comprehend righteousness, thus by following him, we put on HIM and he clothes us. Christ's wholeness does not make us whole. One must WANT to become WHOLE, or one must WANT to bear his own Cross. When Christ becomes KING over our heart, those sins and the dominion that Satan has over the flesh are cast out. We must continue dying to ourself and make him Lord and King. Giving him part or half CONTINUES to separate us from God. Preterism cast aside "sin" and "death" by making the argument more about Adam rather than finding the courage to face our own sin through the power of God.
(Matthew 16:25) “For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.
(Matthew 19:17) And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
(Matthew 19:21) Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”
(John 5:6) When Jesus saw him lying there, and knew that he had already been a long time in that condition, He said to him, “Do you wish to get well?”
Jesus never healed anyone who afterward remained sick. Nor did Christ forgive sins yet allow the sin to remain behind, as if he missed one. Likewise, this notion that "the sin" or "the death" was removed through any historical event but partially remained in tact is a bogus notion that must be rejected.
Big Bus ""how much" a person sins has nothing to do with Christ defeating "the sin" and "the death" of Adam...which is what redemption is about. We've replaced the work of Christ with our own works...instead of looking inward, we need to look to Christ. There's no difference between having a pinch of lust, and a teaspoon of anger, and committing adultery and murder. We're all still SINNERS..the EFFECTS of the fall are with us forever...but Christ DEFEATED THE DEATH, which was the separation wrought through Adam's transgression.
When the Scriptures state that we are "made perfect", that doesn't have anything to do with how we behave. It has to do with our standing before God, thanks to the perfect and cleansing work of Christ on the cross."
christiandiscussionforums.org/v/showthread.php?p=3210795#poststop
(Matthew 16:25) “For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.
(Matthew 19:17) And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
(Matthew 19:21) Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”
(John 5:6) When Jesus saw him lying there, and knew that he had already been a long time in that condition, He said to him, “Do you wish to get well?”
Jesus never healed anyone who afterward remained sick. Nor did Christ forgive sins yet allow the sin to remain behind, as if he missed one. Likewise, this notion that "the sin" or "the death" was removed through any historical event but partially remained in tact is a bogus notion that must be rejected.
Big Bus ""how much" a person sins has nothing to do with Christ defeating "the sin" and "the death" of Adam...which is what redemption is about. We've replaced the work of Christ with our own works...instead of looking inward, we need to look to Christ. There's no difference between having a pinch of lust, and a teaspoon of anger, and committing adultery and murder. We're all still SINNERS..the EFFECTS of the fall are with us forever...but Christ DEFEATED THE DEATH, which was the separation wrought through Adam's transgression.
When the Scriptures state that we are "made perfect", that doesn't have anything to do with how we behave. It has to do with our standing before God, thanks to the perfect and cleansing work of Christ on the cross."
christiandiscussionforums.org/v/showthread.php?p=3210795#poststop
If a Hyper-Preterist suggests he can still sin then his salvation is not “full”
PaulT "one wonders why a Hyper-Preterist would suggest sin remains especially within himself if indeed as they claim the 2nd Advent has occurred, “will appear a second time, not to carry any burden of sin nor deal with sin, but to bring to full salvation those who are [eagerly, constantly, and patiently] waiting for and expecting Him.” Amplified Heb 9:28. According to this if the 2nd Advent has indeed arrived sin should be eradicated and believers should be partaking in full salvation, IOW no struggle with sin in their old nature, because they have entered into “full” salvation. If the Hyper-Preterist suggests he can still sin then his salvation is not “full”."
christiandiscussionforums.org/v/showthread.php?p=3210795#poststop
christiandiscussionforums.org/v/showthread.php?p=3210795#poststop
NT Wright: HyperPreterism equals Hymenaeus and Philetus
NT Wright. Christian Origins and the Question of God. 2003.
"The best explanation of what Hymenaeus and Philetus were teaching is that they were pioneering a view which, as we shall see, was to become popular in other circles in due course, according to which "the resurrection" was now to be interpreted, not in terms of a future bodily hope after death, but purely and simply in terms of a spiritual experience which could be enjoyed during the present life. Certain people had had this experience; they were already, in this new metaphorical sense, "raised from the dead". It is not clear whether the two were encouraging others to have this experiences as well, or whether the point of their teaching was that if one was not already among those favored in this way there was now no hope. One way or another, they were drawing people away from what was being seen as mainstream Christian hope." (page 267-268)
"The best explanation of what Hymenaeus and Philetus were teaching is that they were pioneering a view which, as we shall see, was to become popular in other circles in due course, according to which "the resurrection" was now to be interpreted, not in terms of a future bodily hope after death, but purely and simply in terms of a spiritual experience which could be enjoyed during the present life. Certain people had had this experience; they were already, in this new metaphorical sense, "raised from the dead". It is not clear whether the two were encouraging others to have this experiences as well, or whether the point of their teaching was that if one was not already among those favored in this way there was now no hope. One way or another, they were drawing people away from what was being seen as mainstream Christian hope." (page 267-268)
It is better to say that there is NO Resurrection, THAN THAT IT IS ALREADY PAST
Augustine, John Chrysostom, Philip Schaff. Select Library of the Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers of the Christian. 1889.
"Of whom is Hymeneus and Philetus," Ver. 18. "Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already, and overthrown the faith of some." He has well said, "They will increase unto more ungodliness." For it appears indeed to be a solitary evil, but see what evils spring out of it. For if the Resurrection is already past, not only do we suffer loss in being deprived of that great glory, but because judgment is taken away, and retribution also. For if the Resurrection is past, retribution is past. The good therefore have reaped persecutions and afflictions, and the wicked have not been punished, nay verily, they live in great pleasure. IT WERE BETTER TO SAY THAT THERE IS NO RESURRECTION, THAN THAT IT IS ALREADY PAST. "And overthrow," he says, "the faith of some." "Of some," not of all. For if there is no resurrection, faith is subverted. Out preaching is vain, nor was HE born, nor has He ascended into heaven. Observe how this ERROR, while it seems to oppose the doctrine of the Resurrection, draws after it many other EVILS. (page 493)
"Of whom is Hymeneus and Philetus," Ver. 18. "Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already, and overthrown the faith of some." He has well said, "They will increase unto more ungodliness." For it appears indeed to be a solitary evil, but see what evils spring out of it. For if the Resurrection is already past, not only do we suffer loss in being deprived of that great glory, but because judgment is taken away, and retribution also. For if the Resurrection is past, retribution is past. The good therefore have reaped persecutions and afflictions, and the wicked have not been punished, nay verily, they live in great pleasure. IT WERE BETTER TO SAY THAT THERE IS NO RESURRECTION, THAN THAT IT IS ALREADY PAST. "And overthrow," he says, "the faith of some." "Of some," not of all. For if there is no resurrection, faith is subverted. Out preaching is vain, nor was HE born, nor has He ascended into heaven. Observe how this ERROR, while it seems to oppose the doctrine of the Resurrection, draws after it many other EVILS. (page 493)
Tim King: Looking for a Day of Rest AFTER Jesus
Tim King, A House that Stands. 2003.
"Abraham looked for more than the physical dimension that the promises had to offer. He looked for the heavenly city – the true fullness of these promises (Heb. 11:10,16). The book of Hebrews tells us, “if Joshua had given them rest, God would not speak later about another day” (Hebrews 4:8). But as A.D. 70 approached it is clear that believers had not yet entered into such a day. They had yet to find this day of rest. (as if 70AD gave them something that Jesus Christ did not already give them???) This “other day,” however, was rapidly approaching (Heb. 10:33). This would be the time that the heavenly city would come down (metaphorically) and the rule of God would everywhere be found."
"Augustine saw two cities, a city of God and a city of man. In Augustine’s view, we spend our lives trying to escape the city of man and attain (at our death) the City of God. That portrait is no different from the sojourn of Abraham. . . That view neutralizes the ministry of Jesus, making him no better than Abraham."
"The apostle John envisioned the ultimate day of rest as the time when the heavenly Jerusalem would see its arrival on earth (Revelation 22:1ff.), and the apostle Paul saw this as the time when God would be “all in all” (1 Corinthians 15:28). It is the heavenly city coming down that connects us in our eternal walk with God, in our eternal rest with him." (page 52)
"Fortunately, Scripture provides an interpretive clue by demonstrating to us that Jesus came to reverse Eden’s damage. By the focus of his ministry it is evident he knew that if you take away sin you take away the death (spiritual death) that Eden brought. Jesus came to put away death by putting away sin." (page 66)
"For them, they see the work of the Spirit as associated with the immaturity of the church – thus, when the body of Christ came to maturity in A.D. 70, those things associated with its formation simply went by the wayside as remnants of a previous era. The former things would include words of knowledge, gifts of healing, miracles, prophecy, speaking in tongues, and the interpretation of tongues (cf. 1 Cor. 12:8- 10)."
"Whether one sees the “complete” as the New Covenant order or the arrival of Christ in his people or even the Bible as we have received it, the point is that the “complete” is now here and so the partial, i.e., miraculous working of the Spirit, is over."(page 94)
"Abraham looked for more than the physical dimension that the promises had to offer. He looked for the heavenly city – the true fullness of these promises (Heb. 11:10,16). The book of Hebrews tells us, “if Joshua had given them rest, God would not speak later about another day” (Hebrews 4:8). But as A.D. 70 approached it is clear that believers had not yet entered into such a day. They had yet to find this day of rest. (as if 70AD gave them something that Jesus Christ did not already give them???) This “other day,” however, was rapidly approaching (Heb. 10:33). This would be the time that the heavenly city would come down (metaphorically) and the rule of God would everywhere be found."
"Augustine saw two cities, a city of God and a city of man. In Augustine’s view, we spend our lives trying to escape the city of man and attain (at our death) the City of God. That portrait is no different from the sojourn of Abraham. . . That view neutralizes the ministry of Jesus, making him no better than Abraham."
"The apostle John envisioned the ultimate day of rest as the time when the heavenly Jerusalem would see its arrival on earth (Revelation 22:1ff.), and the apostle Paul saw this as the time when God would be “all in all” (1 Corinthians 15:28). It is the heavenly city coming down that connects us in our eternal walk with God, in our eternal rest with him." (page 52)
"Fortunately, Scripture provides an interpretive clue by demonstrating to us that Jesus came to reverse Eden’s damage. By the focus of his ministry it is evident he knew that if you take away sin you take away the death (spiritual death) that Eden brought. Jesus came to put away death by putting away sin." (page 66)
"For them, they see the work of the Spirit as associated with the immaturity of the church – thus, when the body of Christ came to maturity in A.D. 70, those things associated with its formation simply went by the wayside as remnants of a previous era. The former things would include words of knowledge, gifts of healing, miracles, prophecy, speaking in tongues, and the interpretation of tongues (cf. 1 Cor. 12:8- 10)."
"Whether one sees the “complete” as the New Covenant order or the arrival of Christ in his people or even the Bible as we have received it, the point is that the “complete” is now here and so the partial, i.e., miraculous working of the Spirit, is over."(page 94)
Max King: Delusions of 70AD when ALL THINGS CHANGED
Max King. Old Testament Israel and New Testament Salvation. 1990.
"It will be seen that the A.D. 70 consummation of Old Testament Israel was the focus of “the future” and “the end” taught in the gospel." (page 8)
"It will be shown, therefore, that this eschatological goal of the gospel was reached in the A.D. 70 consummation, when all things written were fulfilled" (page 20)
"Paul goes on to point out concerning Israel, “And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again” (v. 23). This commonly is interpreted to mean that throughout the Christian age any Jew converted to Christ shall be saved. That is true, however it isn’t Paul’s point here. First, when Paul speaks of “Israel” he has in mind more than contemporary Jews of his day. And BY NO MEANS IS HE THINKING OF JEWS IN THE CENTURIES FOLLOWING THE END OF THE JEWISH AGE IN AD 70." (page 11)
"The coming of the kingdom of Christ (Matt. 16:28) or the kingdom of God in power (Mk. 9:1) was the end result of Christ’s pre-end-of-the-Jewish-age reign. The continued presence of the Jewish age until its end in A.D. 70 marks the period of Christ’s absence." (page 42)
"We conclude, therefore, that there is only ONE coming of Christ and his kingdom, that it occurred in the A.D. 70 consummation, that it fulfilled the coming of the kingdom of God in power" (page 44)
"This was the future (the end) affirmed by Paul in 1 Cor. 15:24, when through the age-changing reign of Christ, DEATH, the last enemy, was destroyed. THEN the reign of God was established eternally in the new heavens and earth. THEN the dead were raised incorruption and the mortal put on immortality the prophecy of Isaiah 25:8 was fulfilled, "Death is swallowed up in victory." THEN, the sting of death forever was removed, because that which was its sting (SIN), and that which was sin's strength (THE LAW) had no place in the new heavens and earth. THEN God's promise to Israel to "make an end of sins" and to "bring in everlasting righteousness" was fulfilled. THEN was won the victory through Jesus Christ. THEN the salvation which is of the Jews came to its full realization and manifestation through the revelation of Jesus Christ. THEN all things written were fulfilled. THEN the mission of the Old Testament in bringing us to Christ was accomplished. NOTHING failed. NOTHING was delayed. NOTHING was postponed. NOTHING was carried into the Christian age unfulfilled. (page 70 of the original book)
"It will be seen that the A.D. 70 consummation of Old Testament Israel was the focus of “the future” and “the end” taught in the gospel." (page 8)
"It will be shown, therefore, that this eschatological goal of the gospel was reached in the A.D. 70 consummation, when all things written were fulfilled" (page 20)
"Paul goes on to point out concerning Israel, “And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again” (v. 23). This commonly is interpreted to mean that throughout the Christian age any Jew converted to Christ shall be saved. That is true, however it isn’t Paul’s point here. First, when Paul speaks of “Israel” he has in mind more than contemporary Jews of his day. And BY NO MEANS IS HE THINKING OF JEWS IN THE CENTURIES FOLLOWING THE END OF THE JEWISH AGE IN AD 70." (page 11)
"The coming of the kingdom of Christ (Matt. 16:28) or the kingdom of God in power (Mk. 9:1) was the end result of Christ’s pre-end-of-the-Jewish-age reign. The continued presence of the Jewish age until its end in A.D. 70 marks the period of Christ’s absence." (page 42)
"We conclude, therefore, that there is only ONE coming of Christ and his kingdom, that it occurred in the A.D. 70 consummation, that it fulfilled the coming of the kingdom of God in power" (page 44)
"This was the future (the end) affirmed by Paul in 1 Cor. 15:24, when through the age-changing reign of Christ, DEATH, the last enemy, was destroyed. THEN the reign of God was established eternally in the new heavens and earth. THEN the dead were raised incorruption and the mortal put on immortality the prophecy of Isaiah 25:8 was fulfilled, "Death is swallowed up in victory." THEN, the sting of death forever was removed, because that which was its sting (SIN), and that which was sin's strength (THE LAW) had no place in the new heavens and earth. THEN God's promise to Israel to "make an end of sins" and to "bring in everlasting righteousness" was fulfilled. THEN was won the victory through Jesus Christ. THEN the salvation which is of the Jews came to its full realization and manifestation through the revelation of Jesus Christ. THEN all things written were fulfilled. THEN the mission of the Old Testament in bringing us to Christ was accomplished. NOTHING failed. NOTHING was delayed. NOTHING was postponed. NOTHING was carried into the Christian age unfulfilled. (page 70 of the original book)
No promise of salvation SINCE THAT TIME
Alexander Wilford Hall. Universalism Against Itself: A Scriptural Analysis of the Doctrine. 1883.
"if all God's elect children were gathered at the destruction of Jerusalem, then there have been none elected since; and as there is no promise of salvation to any but the elect through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth; it follows, therefore, that all who have lived and died SINCE THAT TIME, ARE LOST, AND THUS UNIVERSALISM [HYPER-PRETERISM], INSTEAD OF HOLDING FORTH A UNIVERSAL SALVATION, COMES NEARER A UNIVERSAL DAMNATION, THEMSELVES BEING JUDGES.
"if all God's elect children were gathered at the destruction of Jerusalem, then there have been none elected since; and as there is no promise of salvation to any but the elect through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth; it follows, therefore, that all who have lived and died SINCE THAT TIME, ARE LOST, AND THUS UNIVERSALISM [HYPER-PRETERISM], INSTEAD OF HOLDING FORTH A UNIVERSAL SALVATION, COMES NEARER A UNIVERSAL DAMNATION, THEMSELVES BEING JUDGES.
"TO SUGGEST THIS IS TEMPORAL AFFLICTION OF JEWS IN 70 AD IS FANTASTICALLY SILLY"
Douglas J. Deltondo, Douglas J. Del Tondo. Jesus' Words on Salvation. 2008.
The older school of Protestant theologians has a similarly astonishing solution. They limited the parable's validity to only the period of 33 AD to 70AD. Whittemore summarized the support for this. He canvassed all the opinions from major theologians that endorsed this idea. He was arguing that this parable was fulfilled at the destruction of Jerusalem. Whittemore claimed it THEREFORE HAD NO FURTHER MORAL MEANING FOR ANY CHRISTIAN THEREAFTER. "We think, then, we must have shown to the satisfaction of every individual who shall peruse those pages, that this while parable was completely fulfilled at the time of Christ's coming to the Jewish state [at the temple destruction in 70 AD.]." His proof is the temple destruction took place "within forty years after the crucifixion" and this is when the goats were supposedly punished. (Thomas Whittemore, Notes and Illustrations of the Parables of the New Testament (Boston: J.M. Usher, 1855) at 347.) Even though Jesus speaks of this judgment for the goats being with the same "fire" for the diabolos 9devil) and his angels, Whittemore claims the diabolos can mean simply "adversary . . very often . . human beings" and that fire can mean simply temporal affliction, NOT HELL. (id at 350.) Whittemore says the diabolos is a reference by Jesus to the Jews of 70 AD, and the fire to the temple destruction that same year."
"TO SUGGEST THIS IS TEMPORAL AFFLICTION OF JEWS IN 70 AD IS FANTASTICALLY SILLY. . . CLEARLY, ALL OF WHITTEMORE'S NON-SENSE WAS AN EXTREMELY STRAINED READING SO AS TO REIGN IN A PARABLE DIRECTLY DESTRUCTIVE OF THE FABLE OF CHEAP GRACE." (PAGE 228.)
The older school of Protestant theologians has a similarly astonishing solution. They limited the parable's validity to only the period of 33 AD to 70AD. Whittemore summarized the support for this. He canvassed all the opinions from major theologians that endorsed this idea. He was arguing that this parable was fulfilled at the destruction of Jerusalem. Whittemore claimed it THEREFORE HAD NO FURTHER MORAL MEANING FOR ANY CHRISTIAN THEREAFTER. "We think, then, we must have shown to the satisfaction of every individual who shall peruse those pages, that this while parable was completely fulfilled at the time of Christ's coming to the Jewish state [at the temple destruction in 70 AD.]." His proof is the temple destruction took place "within forty years after the crucifixion" and this is when the goats were supposedly punished. (Thomas Whittemore, Notes and Illustrations of the Parables of the New Testament (Boston: J.M. Usher, 1855) at 347.) Even though Jesus speaks of this judgment for the goats being with the same "fire" for the diabolos 9devil) and his angels, Whittemore claims the diabolos can mean simply "adversary . . very often . . human beings" and that fire can mean simply temporal affliction, NOT HELL. (id at 350.) Whittemore says the diabolos is a reference by Jesus to the Jews of 70 AD, and the fire to the temple destruction that same year."
"TO SUGGEST THIS IS TEMPORAL AFFLICTION OF JEWS IN 70 AD IS FANTASTICALLY SILLY. . . CLEARLY, ALL OF WHITTEMORE'S NON-SENSE WAS AN EXTREMELY STRAINED READING SO AS TO REIGN IN A PARABLE DIRECTLY DESTRUCTIVE OF THE FABLE OF CHEAP GRACE." (PAGE 228.)
CAN A WORSE ERROR in " hermeneutics" be made by Hyper-Preterists
David N. Lord: Christ's Prophecy (Matt. xxiv) of the Destruction of Jerusalem, and of His Second Coming (1858) "the one event is typical of the other; his coming to destroy Jerusalem in representation, faint, indeed, but real, of his glorious and awful coming to take vengeance upon the finally impenitent ; and that language, therefore, is used of it which seems appropriately to belong to the final judgment." — Pp. 318, 319.
"The assumption on which Dr. Owen here proceeds is surely as complete a "jargon of hermeneutics " as that of Mr. Alford. For he divests the language of the Saviour altogether of a predictive office, and assigns that function to the events which his words denote ; making the coming of the Son of man in the clouds of heaven, a mere type or symbol of the acts of his providence by which Jerusalem was destroyed ; and then assigns to those acts of providence by which that city was overthrown, the office of representing his real personal coming at the last judgment, to take vengeance upon the finally impenitent. CAN A WORSE ERROR in " hermeneutics" be conceived than this, which thus wrests from the language of prophecy all its predictive meaning, and transfers the office of prediction to the events which it signifies, as types and symbols of a different class of events ; and then makes these last events types and symbols of the other class that are literally denoted by the language of the prediction, and by which they are themselves held to be represented? Or is there any other principle that makes the interpretation of the Sacred Word more entirely the work of a wild and lawless fancy? (p 414)
"Christ's coming in the clouds in visible glory has no adaptation to symbolize the march of the Roman armies into Judea to overthrow Jerusalem. The advance of those armies to Jerusalem and destruction of the city and temple, have no adaptation to symbolize the personal coming of Christ in the clouds to take possession of the earth, destroy his incorrigible enemies, raise his saints from the grave, reward his people, and redeem the earth from the thralldom of sin and death. No agents can be more unlike each other, than Christ and the debased, lawless, and idolatrous romans; no event can present a greater contrast, than their invading Judea to avenge the revolt of the Jews from their cruel rule, and Christ's coming in the clouds to assume the scepter of this world, of which he is the creator and Saviour, and redeem it from the dominion and curse of sin."
http://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/1858_lord_christs-coming.html
"The assumption on which Dr. Owen here proceeds is surely as complete a "jargon of hermeneutics " as that of Mr. Alford. For he divests the language of the Saviour altogether of a predictive office, and assigns that function to the events which his words denote ; making the coming of the Son of man in the clouds of heaven, a mere type or symbol of the acts of his providence by which Jerusalem was destroyed ; and then assigns to those acts of providence by which that city was overthrown, the office of representing his real personal coming at the last judgment, to take vengeance upon the finally impenitent. CAN A WORSE ERROR in " hermeneutics" be conceived than this, which thus wrests from the language of prophecy all its predictive meaning, and transfers the office of prediction to the events which it signifies, as types and symbols of a different class of events ; and then makes these last events types and symbols of the other class that are literally denoted by the language of the prediction, and by which they are themselves held to be represented? Or is there any other principle that makes the interpretation of the Sacred Word more entirely the work of a wild and lawless fancy? (p 414)
"Christ's coming in the clouds in visible glory has no adaptation to symbolize the march of the Roman armies into Judea to overthrow Jerusalem. The advance of those armies to Jerusalem and destruction of the city and temple, have no adaptation to symbolize the personal coming of Christ in the clouds to take possession of the earth, destroy his incorrigible enemies, raise his saints from the grave, reward his people, and redeem the earth from the thralldom of sin and death. No agents can be more unlike each other, than Christ and the debased, lawless, and idolatrous romans; no event can present a greater contrast, than their invading Judea to avenge the revolt of the Jews from their cruel rule, and Christ's coming in the clouds to assume the scepter of this world, of which he is the creator and Saviour, and redeem it from the dominion and curse of sin."
http://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/1858_lord_christs-coming.html
John Bray: Post 70 A.D. IS THE the new heavens and the new earth
Quoted by David Chilton
John L. Bray, Heaven and Earth Shall Pass Away (Lakeland, FL: John L. Bray Ministries,1995), 26.
John Bray writes: "This passage is a grand description of the gospel age after Christ came in judgment in 70 A.D. and took away the old heavens and the old earth. We now have the new heavens and the new earth of the gospel age."
Bray appears to hold to the same Eventual Gospel Universalism that David Chilton holds.
John L. Bray, Heaven and Earth Shall Pass Away (Lakeland, FL: John L. Bray Ministries,1995), 26.
John Bray writes: "This passage is a grand description of the gospel age after Christ came in judgment in 70 A.D. and took away the old heavens and the old earth. We now have the new heavens and the new earth of the gospel age."
Bray appears to hold to the same Eventual Gospel Universalism that David Chilton holds.
Parousia of Satan?
The word "parousia" meaning coming is usually found through Preterist writings, however it is often emphasized "PAROUSIA!!!!!!!!!!" Most Preterist will tell you "PAROUSIA!!!!!!!" is a buzz word meaning a SPECIAL type of "coming", "advent", or "presence" which would occur in 70AD intrinsically connected to "Christ's Return" or more specifically "Christ's FINAL Return." It is really kind of interesting that the word is not emphasized in the Greek, no special font, no special color, not capitalized, and is actually a word like anything else. What is really interesting, is this term they have identified SOLELY with the "final advent of Christ" is actually also used in connection with the "coming", "advent", or "presence" of Satan.
2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed , whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth , and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming
2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming (parousia) is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders ,
WOW! Maybe they should emphasize and glorify the word a bit less as their buzz word because knowing a word in Greek does not make you into a Greek scholar by any means. It simply means you have an obsession with a word and it means learning one Greek word means you MIGHT be smarter than a fifth grader!
2 Thessalonians 2:8 And
2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose
PAUL'S DUALISM DEFINED BY A TENSION BETWEEN SEPARATION AND INCLUSION
Calvin J. Roetzel; Paul, a Jew on the Margins: A Jew on the Margins. 2003.
"The dualism of apocalypticism knows three sets of boundaries: between the world above and the world below (cosmic), between this age and the age to come (temporal), and between the insider and outsider (social). Whether driven by persecution or by the repression and exclusion, or by other causes of distress and trauma, the authors of apocalyptic writings reveal the alienation felt by the community, and that alienation is mirrored in its experience of space and time. Thus, the social differentiation between insiders and outsiders is profoundly reinforced by a mythology cosmic scope and breathtakingly comprehensive in temporal reach.
That this dualism was replicated in a virulent hatred of the Jerusalem priesthood and the Roman oppressors is well documented at Qumram. These same polarities, however, also appear in the Pseudepigrapha: The fallen angels of 1 Enoch stands opposite of the host of heaven (1 Enoch 6-20); heaven and Sheol define the polarities of mythic space, where the "prison house of the [fallen] angels" contrasts with the realm of angels and, hence, the sinners with the righteous (21:10); the final, cataclysmic fire separates the wicked from the redeemed above in the Sibylline Oracles (2.285-310). The fate of the righteous is set in 4 Ezra by the challenge to Roman tyranny declared by the coming messianic kingdom (7:36; 12:32-34), and the nations and their idols are separated from Israel and its God in 2 Baruch (5:1,2; 7:2;13:12;48:27; 67:2;72:5;85:9)."
"The sense of having one's fate dictated by a by a final, climactic, fateful struggle so characteristic of these writing is also evident in Paul's letters. The difference is that Paul, and certainly much of the early church with him, believed that the resolution of that struggle was now beginning. God's righteous act was MANIFESTED in the victory over death made evident in the resurrection of Jesus. This triumph marked the beginning of God's move to reclaim a creation that manifestly was also being claimed by dark, sinister powers. The human landscape Paul knew was a dreadful place- tyrannized by principalities and powers (Rom. 8:38), fought over by a hostile "god of this world" (2 Cor. 4:4), subjected to death (1 Cor. 15:26, 54-55), enslaved by sin (Rom. 6:20-23), and threatened by Satan (1 Cor. 7:5), demons (1 Cor. 10:20-22), and the rulers of this age. According to Paul's gospel, this dark, demonic hegemony that for some seemed more real, its claims more insistent that the rule of God, was now being overthrown, and the resolution of that final desperate struggle was at hand." (NOT JUST THEM, WE TOO ARE ALSO IN THE SAME STRUGGLE BETWEEN THE PRINCIPALITIES OF THIS WORLD AND THE WORLD TO COME. SO "AT HAND" IS CONTINUAL, AND SATAN IS BEING OVERTHROWN BY CHRIST AS HE MAKES US WHOLE. IN CONTRAST PRETERISM SEES AT HAND AS REFERRING TO 70AD, WHICH IS WHEN THEY CLAIM THE STRUGGLE HAS PASSED.)
"BUT how did this cosmic mythology infiltrate the discourse of Paul with the community? We know of obvious cases in 1 Thessalonians where he distinguishes those who worship God from those who worship idols (1:6), where he juxtaposes his apostleship and ministry of encouragement against the ministry of deceit, uncleanness, guile, flattery, and crowd-pleasing gestures of others (2:3-10), where he positions the believer opposite the immoral, passionate, lustful Gentiles, and where he compares the "children of the day" with the children of "the night," the wakefulness of believers with the sleep of the unbelievers (5:5-6)."
"The same differentiation also appears in 1 Corinthians. First Corinthians 1:9 contrasts those called out of the world "into the fellowship of God's son" with the children of this world; 1:18 opposes those "perishing" to those "being saved"; 2:14-15 contrasts the "unspiritual" and the "spiritual," 5:! the pagans and the believers, 5:7 the old dough and the new, and 6:1-11 the "washed," the "consecrated," and the "justified" with the immoral, idolaters, the greedy, and the abusive. This differentiation is so pervasive in Paul's letters that it hardly needs further documentation."
"PAUL'S DUALISM IS DISTINGUISHED NOT BY A SEPARATION BETWEEN THE INSIDER AND OUTSIDER OR BELIEVER AND UNBELIEVER BUT BY A TENSION BETWEEN SEPARATION (those NOT IN CHRIST) AND INCLUSION (those IN CHRIST), OR BETWEEN DIFFERENTIATION AND DIFFUSION. PAUL'S ADJUSTMENT OF THE BOUNDARIES DEVIATES FROM THE USUAL PATTERN OF APOCALYPTIC WRITINGS OF HIS TIME." (page 23-24)
"The dualism of apocalypticism knows three sets of boundaries: between the world above and the world below (cosmic), between this age and the age to come (temporal), and between the insider and outsider (social). Whether driven by persecution or by the repression and exclusion, or by other causes of distress and trauma, the authors of apocalyptic writings reveal the alienation felt by the community, and that alienation is mirrored in its experience of space and time. Thus, the social differentiation between insiders and outsiders is profoundly reinforced by a mythology cosmic scope and breathtakingly comprehensive in temporal reach.
That this dualism was replicated in a virulent hatred of the Jerusalem priesthood and the Roman oppressors is well documented at Qumram. These same polarities, however, also appear in the Pseudepigrapha: The fallen angels of 1 Enoch stands opposite of the host of heaven (1 Enoch 6-20); heaven and Sheol define the polarities of mythic space, where the "prison house of the [fallen] angels" contrasts with the realm of angels and, hence, the sinners with the righteous (21:10); the final, cataclysmic fire separates the wicked from the redeemed above in the Sibylline Oracles (2.285-310). The fate of the righteous is set in 4 Ezra by the challenge to Roman tyranny declared by the coming messianic kingdom (7:36; 12:32-34), and the nations and their idols are separated from Israel and its God in 2 Baruch (5:1,2; 7:2;13:12;48:27; 67:2;72:5;85:9)."
"The sense of having one's fate dictated by a by a final, climactic, fateful struggle so characteristic of these writing is also evident in Paul's letters. The difference is that Paul, and certainly much of the early church with him, believed that the resolution of that struggle was now beginning. God's righteous act was MANIFESTED in the victory over death made evident in the resurrection of Jesus. This triumph marked the beginning of God's move to reclaim a creation that manifestly was also being claimed by dark, sinister powers. The human landscape Paul knew was a dreadful place- tyrannized by principalities and powers (Rom. 8:38), fought over by a hostile "god of this world" (2 Cor. 4:4), subjected to death (1 Cor. 15:26, 54-55), enslaved by sin (Rom. 6:20-23), and threatened by Satan (1 Cor. 7:5), demons (1 Cor. 10:20-22), and the rulers of this age. According to Paul's gospel, this dark, demonic hegemony that for some seemed more real, its claims more insistent that the rule of God, was now being overthrown, and the resolution of that final desperate struggle was at hand." (NOT JUST THEM, WE TOO ARE ALSO IN THE SAME STRUGGLE BETWEEN THE PRINCIPALITIES OF THIS WORLD AND THE WORLD TO COME. SO "AT HAND" IS CONTINUAL, AND SATAN IS BEING OVERTHROWN BY CHRIST AS HE MAKES US WHOLE. IN CONTRAST PRETERISM SEES AT HAND AS REFERRING TO 70AD, WHICH IS WHEN THEY CLAIM THE STRUGGLE HAS PASSED.)
"BUT how did this cosmic mythology infiltrate the discourse of Paul with the community? We know of obvious cases in 1 Thessalonians where he distinguishes those who worship God from those who worship idols (1:6), where he juxtaposes his apostleship and ministry of encouragement against the ministry of deceit, uncleanness, guile, flattery, and crowd-pleasing gestures of others (2:3-10), where he positions the believer opposite the immoral, passionate, lustful Gentiles, and where he compares the "children of the day" with the children of "the night," the wakefulness of believers with the sleep of the unbelievers (5:5-6)."
"The same differentiation also appears in 1 Corinthians. First Corinthians 1:9 contrasts those called out of the world "into the fellowship of God's son" with the children of this world; 1:18 opposes those "perishing" to those "being saved"; 2:14-15 contrasts the "unspiritual" and the "spiritual," 5:! the pagans and the believers, 5:7 the old dough and the new, and 6:1-11 the "washed," the "consecrated," and the "justified" with the immoral, idolaters, the greedy, and the abusive. This differentiation is so pervasive in Paul's letters that it hardly needs further documentation."
"PAUL'S DUALISM IS DISTINGUISHED NOT BY A SEPARATION BETWEEN THE INSIDER AND OUTSIDER OR BELIEVER AND UNBELIEVER BUT BY A TENSION BETWEEN SEPARATION (those NOT IN CHRIST) AND INCLUSION (those IN CHRIST), OR BETWEEN DIFFERENTIATION AND DIFFUSION. PAUL'S ADJUSTMENT OF THE BOUNDARIES DEVIATES FROM THE USUAL PATTERN OF APOCALYPTIC WRITINGS OF HIS TIME." (page 23-24)
Chronological Dualism= 70AD as the dividing line
Chronological Dualism = history is divided into the current evil age and the coming good or heavenly age.
The Spawn of Preterism (Seeds of Ignorance and Signs of Gangrene)
Like bacteria in a petri dish, Preterism is spawning into a smelly stinky fungus full of ignorance. This guy "Derrick" aka "DTG aka love me or hate me" or "Derrick the Gladiator" is a new convert to Preterism and his arrogance and pride shows the nature of the fruit he has taken and eaten from the Preterist "tree of death." This is just one more example of how Preterism leads people away from the truth by allowing them to believe a lie. So much so, Derrick self assurance that "I'm right" overflows out of his heart and pours out of his mouth like vomit. A smelling odor for sure!!!!
DTG aka love me or hate me March 18th, 2008 at 9:33 am
Much wind and much writing “but” no signs in sight and NO proof I’LL say it again NO proof people. PLEASE give one sign Saiko or Kirk please ONE sign HE’S coming. DON’T say no man knows, he gave them signs not just about some one time temple discussion this isn’t going to work. Please prove your “race” in Matthew 24:34 which makes me laugh!! Then to use the word blasphemous I will spear you to say the lest NOW! Because I know “your” tenets are at sake here, and you should fight for them as the Jews did but will they hold up. Talking about camps makes me laugh again in the “futurist” better know as the confused camps. Which one should I start with there is too many too name. Don’t forget to quote your “pastor” after the sermon “any day soon” what a joke statement! Saiko you know you can get Kirk number and do what we do best call ME! with Kirk TO-Nite if you please to much writing to solve this Mess!!
comment by DTG aka love me or hate me 2008-06-27 23:37:22
To I.C. what do I say to you man is get help and a lot of it. YOUR lies will only stand but so long. Maybe you should become a politician because they are famous for lying but smiling at the same time like you and deceiving people.
Comment by DTG aka love me or hate me 2008-06-27 23:27:59 s
Gary V would say whooooooooooooooooooo I’m shaking with the heresy word. I’m not going to call no names no need.
Comment by Derrick the Gladiator 2007-05-19 20:02:25
To IC, First of all, no, I don’t agree with marketing any minister period. Aren’t we all ministers of the gospel in these days? As far as I’m concerned, the gospel is completed and they all need to get a JOB! And don’t tell me their job is to feed me from the same Bible I’m holding in my hands right now. Unless I’m illiterate, I don’t need anyone to read to me, and I’m sure not supporting no self-called pastor or apostle. They need to be like Paul and continue to work so that they won’t be a burden to the people. Frankly, I’m tired of all this self promotion. Get my book, my tape, my cd, this anointed series etc.
Comment by DTG aka love me or hate me 2008-07-11 14:48:17
I believe what the bible says about relationships, the principles still apply for ages to come. The leadership concept in the church don’t because we each have our own bibles and don’t have to wait for a letter from the apostles to tell us what Jesus is saying. We all know for ourselves what Jesus says! I don’t need a pastor or deacon or denomination shoving their tenets down my throat. If you guys do that’s your choice. My tenets are the 66 books of COMPLETED scriptures and fulfilled prophecy. Is this “unity” we have now what Jesus is coming back too? With over 360 denominations claiming they have the “truth” which one is Jesus soon coming back for?
comment by DTG 2007-10-24 17:26:12
First of all, about your comment yesterday where you said you don’t know what I’m dealing with; please man, give me a break! Your psychological mind games don’t work on me. Your subtle spin tactics only work on your sheeple. Unfortunately for them, they’ve left the manipulation of the money pimps only to be sucked in to your manipulation. Like I’ve said before, I know this type of mindset. Take a good look at yourself MN. To me, you’ve become just like the pimps you despise. You now have your own internet pulpit where you get to have the final say and present the “facts” as you see them. This is ok with me because my former “pastor” prepared me mighty well for this kind of garbage. Been there done that! Your sheeple can’t even see when you’re being deceptive. By keeping the focus on the other kinds of pimps, you fly right under the radar. I can’t stand NO KIND of pimp mentality whether on a website or in a building that you love to call a church. Don’t think I didn’t notice when you put your spin on Seekerman’s post by trying to make it look like he was agreeing with your point of view, when he wasn’t. (MN: ? ) Where’s your integrity Spinny? I’m sure by now I’m boring you as you like to say. So what, the feeling is mutual! You want to make slick remarks about me and don’t expect me to say anything? By the way Spinny, a sure fire way for a boxer to lose a fight is by fighting the other man’s fight. Nah, baby, I’m not going to fight your fight. I know this is YOUR blog, and I’m on your turf with all your sheeple ready to defend you. I’m not a respecter of persons, Mel. You should know that about me by now. I’m not afraid of being banned or having you ridicule me. Do what you do best, no sweat off my brow. Maybe I’ll start my own blog and you will be my main feature along with The Professor, and HE knows who HE is. I know, I know, I’m using up your bandwidth, I’m a valuable object lesson for you to present to your sheeple, and your favorite one; I still didn’t address the issues. (MN: No. You didn’t. ) Yada, yada, yada. Whatever, Spinny, I’m only playing your game. Sincerely yours,
Derrick the Gladiator, aka the Hound, the Butcher, AND the PRETERIST!!!!! Comment by DTG aka love me or hate me 2008-07-10 14:04:19
To Xerxes, ONCE again we’ve got someone standing on the shoulders of Men! First off, these are YOUR church fathers not mine. They had there time in history that’s it. I have heard this dead statements before so please don’t post something else form UNinspired men. Are you new to this site? Where have you been for a year! A partial so-called preterist like Dr. Sproul is aka futurist, please man!
By the way, as for your other comment to me, I made a mistake leaving out the ” ” on pastor because I don’t consider any of you guys pastors. Your non answer to my question was STILL NO ANSWER. So let’s try this again. What were the weak points? And as far as you talking to someone not illuminated by the Holy Ghost, I was thinking the same thing about you so I’m obviously waisting my time!
DTG aka love me or hate me March 18th, 2008 at 9:33 am
Much wind and much writing “but” no signs in sight and NO proof I’LL say it again NO proof people. PLEASE give one sign Saiko or Kirk please ONE sign HE’S coming. DON’T say no man knows, he gave them signs not just about some one time temple discussion this isn’t going to work. Please prove your “race” in Matthew 24:34 which makes me laugh!! Then to use the word blasphemous I will spear you to say the lest NOW! Because I know “your” tenets are at sake here, and you should fight for them as the Jews did but will they hold up. Talking about camps makes me laugh again in the “futurist” better know as the confused camps. Which one should I start with there is too many too name. Don’t forget to quote your “pastor” after the sermon “any day soon” what a joke statement! Saiko you know you can get Kirk number and do what we do best call ME! with Kirk TO-Nite if you please to much writing to solve this Mess!!
comment by DTG aka love me or hate me 2008-06-27 23:37:22
To I.C. what do I say to you man is get help and a lot of it. YOUR lies will only stand but so long. Maybe you should become a politician because they are famous for lying but smiling at the same time like you and deceiving people.
Comment by DTG aka love me or hate me 2008-06-27 23:27:59 s
Gary V would say whooooooooooooooooooo I’m shaking with the heresy word. I’m not going to call no names no need.
Comment by Derrick the Gladiator 2007-05-19 20:02:25
To IC, First of all, no, I don’t agree with marketing any minister period. Aren’t we all ministers of the gospel in these days? As far as I’m concerned, the gospel is completed and they all need to get a JOB! And don’t tell me their job is to feed me from the same Bible I’m holding in my hands right now. Unless I’m illiterate, I don’t need anyone to read to me, and I’m sure not supporting no self-called pastor or apostle. They need to be like Paul and continue to work so that they won’t be a burden to the people. Frankly, I’m tired of all this self promotion. Get my book, my tape, my cd, this anointed series etc.
Comment by DTG aka love me or hate me 2008-07-11 14:48:17
I believe what the bible says about relationships, the principles still apply for ages to come. The leadership concept in the church don’t because we each have our own bibles and don’t have to wait for a letter from the apostles to tell us what Jesus is saying. We all know for ourselves what Jesus says! I don’t need a pastor or deacon or denomination shoving their tenets down my throat. If you guys do that’s your choice. My tenets are the 66 books of COMPLETED scriptures and fulfilled prophecy. Is this “unity” we have now what Jesus is coming back too? With over 360 denominations claiming they have the “truth” which one is Jesus soon coming back for?
comment by DTG 2007-10-24 17:26:12
First of all, about your comment yesterday where you said you don’t know what I’m dealing with; please man, give me a break! Your psychological mind games don’t work on me. Your subtle spin tactics only work on your sheeple. Unfortunately for them, they’ve left the manipulation of the money pimps only to be sucked in to your manipulation. Like I’ve said before, I know this type of mindset. Take a good look at yourself MN. To me, you’ve become just like the pimps you despise. You now have your own internet pulpit where you get to have the final say and present the “facts” as you see them. This is ok with me because my former “pastor” prepared me mighty well for this kind of garbage. Been there done that! Your sheeple can’t even see when you’re being deceptive. By keeping the focus on the other kinds of pimps, you fly right under the radar. I can’t stand NO KIND of pimp mentality whether on a website or in a building that you love to call a church. Don’t think I didn’t notice when you put your spin on Seekerman’s post by trying to make it look like he was agreeing with your point of view, when he wasn’t. (MN: ? ) Where’s your integrity Spinny? I’m sure by now I’m boring you as you like to say. So what, the feeling is mutual! You want to make slick remarks about me and don’t expect me to say anything? By the way Spinny, a sure fire way for a boxer to lose a fight is by fighting the other man’s fight. Nah, baby, I’m not going to fight your fight. I know this is YOUR blog, and I’m on your turf with all your sheeple ready to defend you. I’m not a respecter of persons, Mel. You should know that about me by now. I’m not afraid of being banned or having you ridicule me. Do what you do best, no sweat off my brow. Maybe I’ll start my own blog and you will be my main feature along with The Professor, and HE knows who HE is. I know, I know, I’m using up your bandwidth, I’m a valuable object lesson for you to present to your sheeple, and your favorite one; I still didn’t address the issues. (MN: No. You didn’t. ) Yada, yada, yada. Whatever, Spinny, I’m only playing your game. Sincerely yours,
Derrick the Gladiator, aka the Hound, the Butcher, AND the PRETERIST!!!!! Comment by DTG aka love me or hate me 2008-07-10 14:04:19
To Xerxes, ONCE again we’ve got someone standing on the shoulders of Men! First off, these are YOUR church fathers not mine. They had there time in history that’s it. I have heard this dead statements before so please don’t post something else form UNinspired men. Are you new to this site? Where have you been for a year! A partial so-called preterist like Dr. Sproul is aka futurist, please man!
By the way, as for your other comment to me, I made a mistake leaving out the ” ” on pastor because I don’t consider any of you guys pastors. Your non answer to my question was STILL NO ANSWER. So let’s try this again. What were the weak points? And as far as you talking to someone not illuminated by the Holy Ghost, I was thinking the same thing about you so I’m obviously waisting my time!
The day of the Lord cannot be confined to the temporal cycle
Michael Patella. The Gospel According to Luke: New Testament.
"The day of the Lord cannot be confined to the temporal cycle."(Page 33)
"The eschaton will not arrive without struggle. In order to sit at the banquet table in the kingdom of heaven, one must value it above any other facet of life, and acting on this value will be a struggle of WARLIKE PROPORTIONS. The banquet therefore becomes a metaphor for victory in the battle on behalf of God."(Page 100)
(Note: a clearly idealist view which makes the eschaton about nature rather than about time.)
"The reference to "this generation" (v.32) is ambiguous. In one sense, there is every reason to believe that many in the then contemporary generation would not pass away until after the First Jewish revolt. on the other hand, "if "all these things" refers to upheavals in nature ushering in the Son of Man, "this generation" is a timeless reference to the world; the eschaton, or end time, is ALWAY IMMINENT." (Page 183)
"The day of the Lord cannot be confined to the temporal cycle."(Page 33)
"The eschaton will not arrive without struggle. In order to sit at the banquet table in the kingdom of heaven, one must value it above any other facet of life, and acting on this value will be a struggle of WARLIKE PROPORTIONS. The banquet therefore becomes a metaphor for victory in the battle on behalf of God."(Page 100)
(Note: a clearly idealist view which makes the eschaton about nature rather than about time.)
"The reference to "this generation" (v.32) is ambiguous. In one sense, there is every reason to believe that many in the then contemporary generation would not pass away until after the First Jewish revolt. on the other hand, "if "all these things" refers to upheavals in nature ushering in the Son of Man, "this generation" is a timeless reference to the world; the eschaton, or end time, is ALWAY IMMINENT." (Page 183)
Chronos and Kairos
Michael Eric Dyson; Open Mike: Reflections on Philosophy, Race, Sex, Culture and Religion. 2003.
"In Christian circles, realized eschatology is the doctrine through which theologians argue that the ultimate matters in life-death, hell, judgment, and the grace among them- have been manifest, have been realized, within time and not in a transcendent space beyond time. In biblical terms, there are two conceptions of time, chronos and kairos. Chronos is chronological time that extends forward and backward in linear fashion (aka horizontal dualism). Kairos is about the fullness of time- the resplendent, resonant sense of time replete with all the significations of eternity. Kairos is about time being pregnant. "
"In Christian circles, realized eschatology is the doctrine through which theologians argue that the ultimate matters in life-death, hell, judgment, and the grace among them- have been manifest, have been realized, within time and not in a transcendent space beyond time. In biblical terms, there are two conceptions of time, chronos and kairos. Chronos is chronological time that extends forward and backward in linear fashion (aka horizontal dualism). Kairos is about the fullness of time- the resplendent, resonant sense of time replete with all the significations of eternity. Kairos is about time being pregnant. "
MYTHICAL TIME, however, is not conceived of chronologically (chronos) but archetypically (kairos)
Ched Myers "MYTHICAL TIME, however, is not conceived of chronologically (chronos) but archetypically (kairos). The two "age" coexist in human history as "good" and "evil," each with their own respective "pasts" and "futures." The function of the myth is parenetic: the dualism compels listeners to clarify their allegiances in the historical struggle between fundamentally differing social visions. . . The collapsing of chronos into kairos is not, however, absolute in Biblical faith: Yahweh's purposes will "in the end" prevail. Apocalyptic dualism is not static but dynamic, asserting that the corrupt age is already "passing away," the new on dawning.
William Neil: God's timeless judgment which is past, present, and future
William Neil "[The Day of the Lord] is God's timeless Judgment which IS past, present, and future. In a sense it is always to come, in a sense it is always present, and in a sense it has already been passed . . . Thus the Parousia [a technical word for the second coming] is, like Creation, in a real sense timeless; not an historical event, but the underlying purpose of history and the summing up of all things in Christ." (Thessalonians, London, 1950, pp. xli–xlii)
Horizontal Dualism and Hyper-Preterism
Larry R. Helyer. Exploring Jewish Literature of the Second Temple Period: A Guide for New Testament Students
The fundamental dualism of Second Temple period Judaism and the NT is a horizontal or temporal dualism. God's plan for the cosmos unfolds in two ages. "This age" stretches from creation to the mighty intervention of God and his holy angels at the great Day of the Lord. This introduces a completely new era, "the age to come." The fall (or angelic rebellion, as in BW) is the reason for the necessity of a new age. Resurrection or the conferring of immortality must overcome death, one of the consequences of the introduction of sin. The age to come is a return to paradise, an age of unending flory on a renewed earth; it is, in short, a new creation."
"The NT accepts this basic dualism with ONE VERY IMPORTANT QUALIFICATIONS: THE AGE TO COME HAS ALREADY BEGUN FOR BELIEVERS IN JESUS THE MESSIAH. Already the holy Spirit has been poured out on all believers, both men and women (Acts 2:14-39); already the powers of the age to come are exerting their force in the lives of believers (Heb 1:1; 6:5) already the age of resurrection has begun with the resurrection of Jesus (1 Cor. 15:20-28). Of course, the NT maintains a reservation here. the powers of the age to come are already at work, but by no means has the age to come arrived in all its fullness. That awaits the parousia (Greek word meaning "presence, coming or arrival") of Jesus Christ at the Day of the Lord. The upshot is that is that for the NT we have a "now but not yet" tension between this age and the age to come. There is a sort of overlap between the ages. (Page 88-89)
The problem is placing the Parousia in 70AD ushering in the "age to come" as a post 70AD period. Hyper-Preterism want to think on a horizontal plane thinking in terms of time, yet it is in Christ that established a vertical plane between things below/things above, light/darkness; spirit/flesh; life/death; truth/falsehood; heavenly/earthly; God/Satan; True Israel/The Jews or world.
The fundamental dualism of Second Temple period Judaism and the NT is a horizontal or temporal dualism. God's plan for the cosmos unfolds in two ages. "This age" stretches from creation to the mighty intervention of God and his holy angels at the great Day of the Lord. This introduces a completely new era, "the age to come." The fall (or angelic rebellion, as in BW) is the reason for the necessity of a new age. Resurrection or the conferring of immortality must overcome death, one of the consequences of the introduction of sin. The age to come is a return to paradise, an age of unending flory on a renewed earth; it is, in short, a new creation."
"The NT accepts this basic dualism with ONE VERY IMPORTANT QUALIFICATIONS: THE AGE TO COME HAS ALREADY BEGUN FOR BELIEVERS IN JESUS THE MESSIAH. Already the holy Spirit has been poured out on all believers, both men and women (Acts 2:14-39); already the powers of the age to come are exerting their force in the lives of believers (Heb 1:1; 6:5) already the age of resurrection has begun with the resurrection of Jesus (1 Cor. 15:20-28). Of course, the NT maintains a reservation here. the powers of the age to come are already at work, but by no means has the age to come arrived in all its fullness. That awaits the parousia (Greek word meaning "presence, coming or arrival") of Jesus Christ at the Day of the Lord. The upshot is that is that for the NT we have a "now but not yet" tension between this age and the age to come. There is a sort of overlap between the ages. (Page 88-89)
The problem is placing the Parousia in 70AD ushering in the "age to come" as a post 70AD period. Hyper-Preterism want to think on a horizontal plane thinking in terms of time, yet it is in Christ that established a vertical plane between things below/things above, light/darkness; spirit/flesh; life/death; truth/falsehood; heavenly/earthly; God/Satan; True Israel/The Jews or world.
A Dualism of Time
Robert Kysar; John, the Maverick Gospel: The Maverick Gospel. 1993.
"Theirs was also a dualism of time. History was divided into two basic periods - the present era still dominated by the power of Satan, and the age to come in which Satan and his force would be destroyed and God's reign actualized. (SOUND FAMILIAR) We might like to think of this double dualism in the way shown in figure 2-1. The vertical dimension represents a cosmic dualism and the horizontal dimension a temporal (or historical) dualism. (The term "cosmic" is used here to mean that which is build into reality in any time or place.)" (Page 59)
The human response to him is both a historical event and an event that has trancendant value. It is not unlike the way a simple physical gesture (an embrace or a kiss) is both a historical and temporal event and at the same time an expression of the reality of love - a reality that transcends the single event. Consequently, one of these additional features of the Gospel of John its story is that time is both historical and BEYOND HISTORY. So, for instance, the temporal sequence of crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension that we know so well from the Gospels (especially Luke) is blurred in the Fourth Gospel. . . Time is penetrated by and permeated with the divine realm, beyond time. The result is that temporal sequence is obscured.(Page 64)
"Theirs was also a dualism of time. History was divided into two basic periods - the present era still dominated by the power of Satan, and the age to come in which Satan and his force would be destroyed and God's reign actualized. (SOUND FAMILIAR) We might like to think of this double dualism in the way shown in figure 2-1. The vertical dimension represents a cosmic dualism and the horizontal dimension a temporal (or historical) dualism. (The term "cosmic" is used here to mean that which is build into reality in any time or place.)" (Page 59)
The human response to him is both a historical event and an event that has trancendant value. It is not unlike the way a simple physical gesture (an embrace or a kiss) is both a historical and temporal event and at the same time an expression of the reality of love - a reality that transcends the single event. Consequently, one of these additional features of the Gospel of John its story is that time is both historical and BEYOND HISTORY. So, for instance, the temporal sequence of crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension that we know so well from the Gospels (especially Luke) is blurred in the Fourth Gospel. . . Time is penetrated by and permeated with the divine realm, beyond time. The result is that temporal sequence is obscured.(Page 64)
Horizontal Dualism to Vertical Dualism
Bart D. Ehrman; Peter, Paul, and Mary Magdalene: The Followers of Jesus in History and Legend
"The apocalyptic dualism that proclaimed a dividing line between the current evil age and the future utopiam age mutated into a non-apocalyptic dualism between this evil world and the world of God. In other words, a horizontal dualism that was sketched in time - this age and the age to come - was transformed into a vertical dualism sketched in space: this world and the world above."
"There are very few people in the world (Preterism) who are interested in the past simply because they want to know what happened, who are intrigued (and obsessed, aka horizontal dualism) with history because (in theory at least) it's just there. There is always a question, of course, if history is actually "there" at all. Where exactly is it? And if it isn't anywhere, then how do we know it was ever there?"
"The apocalyptic dualism that proclaimed a dividing line between the current evil age and the future utopiam age mutated into a non-apocalyptic dualism between this evil world and the world of God. In other words, a horizontal dualism that was sketched in time - this age and the age to come - was transformed into a vertical dualism sketched in space: this world and the world above."
"There are very few people in the world (Preterism) who are interested in the past simply because they want to know what happened, who are intrigued (and obsessed, aka horizontal dualism) with history because (in theory at least) it's just there. There is always a question, of course, if history is actually "there" at all. Where exactly is it? And if it isn't anywhere, then how do we know it was ever there?"
HISTORY SERVING AS THE KEY IS RIDICULOUS
Hans Urs von Balthasar; Explorations in Theology
"If he, as the One finally come, is the complete, definitive fulfillment, he is also, as a living person, the progressive, continual fulfillment. And since he is both of these in one, and always remains such, the possibility ensues of there being scripture even after him, though of a quite difference character."
"And although Jesus made his life as man the compendium of scriptures, and realized in himself all its promises of eternal life (Jn 5:39-40), still there can be a scripture subsequent to him; and this fact is proof that the fulfillment of the Father's decrees does not imply annihilation; that Jesus' fulfillment is not a conclusion (as in human affairs) but rather a new opening (as always with God); that he makes fulfillment issue in a new promise so as to remain at all times what he is, namely, the One who ever and again fulfills beyond expectations." (Page 13-14)
"Neither the pre-Christian nor the Christian conception of history claimed to solve the problem of the inner meaning and movement of history through a consideration of the course of events. The only "solution" achieved in this manner was through a reduction of the real metaphysical questions to a superficial, arid pattern of historical "progress". This pattern in turn CAN BE MADE TO SERVE AS THE KEY TO THE WHOLE ONLY BY MISCONCEIVING, INDEED DEPRECIATING THE MEANING AND VALUE OF THE HUMAN PERSON AND THE WHOLE PHILOSOPHY OF MAN. A philosophy of history which DOES NOT TAKE ACCOUNT OF THE "MYSTERY" OF MEANING, BUT WHICH OFFERS A FINAL SOLUTION, A CLEAR EXPLANATION OF THE BEGINNING AND END OF HISTORY, IS RIDICULOUS FROM THE OUTSET, just as any philosophy is that claims to be able to define being and existence." (Page 28)
"If he, as the One finally come, is the complete, definitive fulfillment, he is also, as a living person, the progressive, continual fulfillment. And since he is both of these in one, and always remains such, the possibility ensues of there being scripture even after him, though of a quite difference character."
"And although Jesus made his life as man the compendium of scriptures, and realized in himself all its promises of eternal life (Jn 5:39-40), still there can be a scripture subsequent to him; and this fact is proof that the fulfillment of the Father's decrees does not imply annihilation; that Jesus' fulfillment is not a conclusion (as in human affairs) but rather a new opening (as always with God); that he makes fulfillment issue in a new promise so as to remain at all times what he is, namely, the One who ever and again fulfills beyond expectations." (Page 13-14)
"Neither the pre-Christian nor the Christian conception of history claimed to solve the problem of the inner meaning and movement of history through a consideration of the course of events. The only "solution" achieved in this manner was through a reduction of the real metaphysical questions to a superficial, arid pattern of historical "progress". This pattern in turn CAN BE MADE TO SERVE AS THE KEY TO THE WHOLE ONLY BY MISCONCEIVING, INDEED DEPRECIATING THE MEANING AND VALUE OF THE HUMAN PERSON AND THE WHOLE PHILOSOPHY OF MAN. A philosophy of history which DOES NOT TAKE ACCOUNT OF THE "MYSTERY" OF MEANING, BUT WHICH OFFERS A FINAL SOLUTION, A CLEAR EXPLANATION OF THE BEGINNING AND END OF HISTORY, IS RIDICULOUS FROM THE OUTSET, just as any philosophy is that claims to be able to define being and existence." (Page 28)
John Caputo: The Messiah's "coming" CAN NEVER CORRESPOND IN ORDINARY TIME
Another blow to Hyper-Preterists argument that "TIME" is the substance of things to be hoped for, the evidence of things that appear not.
John D. Caputo; The Prayers and Tears of Jacques Derrida: Religion Without Religion; 1997.
"Jewish messianic thought gives us a way to think about time, about events, about the way they eventuate precisely inasmuch as they do not occur. Let us suppose, the story goes, that the Messiah shows up one day, at the gates of Roman, but in disguise, dressed as a begger or a leper, an incognito meant to "protect or prevent his coming (venue)." The venue of the the Messiah, his coming or arrival, is something to shelter or protect from ordinary time and the present. The whole order of venir and a-venir belongs to an other, messianic time and an other language, so that nothing coming (venue) could ever actually occur or come about, or have occurred or have come about, in ordinary time. The Messiah's "coming" CAN NEVER ACTUALLY CORRESPOND TO AN ACTUAL-HISTORICAL APPEARANCE IN ORDINARY TIME. Whatever appearance the Messiah does not make must be carefully protected or sheltered by the discretion of a disguise, lest the infinite provocation, the discreet delicacy and lightness, of that is coming be destroyed by its exposure to ordinary time, by its absorption into the grossness of the order of presence."
"Even if the Messiah is there, la, in the flesh, present in ordinary time, such a presence can never amount to a coming, for coming - venue, venir, l'avenir- does not belong to the order of presence, "se venue ne correspond pas a une presence," but to a messianic order."
"So when the Messiah says "today," now he means "Now if only you heed me, or if you are willing to listen to my voice." The messianic "today" means: if you will begin, now, to respond to the call that the Messiah himself addresses to you, begin to answer the demands he places upon you, if, in order words, you are willing now to say viens as a response to the Messiah's call, . . . " "The messianic "today" means: if you are willing to respond - by your passivity and your patience - to the coming of the Messiah, for the Messiah's kingdom IS ALWAY TO COME, the very meaning of the Messiah is of a kingdom to come, of what is structurally coming, even as it makes an urgent demand upon us NOW." (Page 80)
______________________________________________________________
Footnote: Caputo received his B.A. in 1962 from La Salle University, his M.A. in 1964 from Villanova University and his Ph.D. in philosophy in 1968 from Bryn Mawr College. Caputo was the David R. Cook Professor of Philosophy at Villanova University from 1968 to 2004. Since 2004, Caputo has been the Thomas J. Watson Professor of Humanities at Syracuse University, where he teaches in both the departments of philosophy and religion. He is active in the American Philosophical Association, the American Academy of Religion, and chairs the board of editors for the Journal for Cultural and Religious Theory.
John D. Caputo; The Prayers and Tears of Jacques Derrida: Religion Without Religion; 1997.
"Jewish messianic thought gives us a way to think about time, about events, about the way they eventuate precisely inasmuch as they do not occur. Let us suppose, the story goes, that the Messiah shows up one day, at the gates of Roman, but in disguise, dressed as a begger or a leper, an incognito meant to "protect or prevent his coming (venue)." The venue of the the Messiah, his coming or arrival, is something to shelter or protect from ordinary time and the present. The whole order of venir and a-venir belongs to an other, messianic time and an other language, so that nothing coming (venue) could ever actually occur or come about, or have occurred or have come about, in ordinary time. The Messiah's "coming" CAN NEVER ACTUALLY CORRESPOND TO AN ACTUAL-HISTORICAL APPEARANCE IN ORDINARY TIME. Whatever appearance the Messiah does not make must be carefully protected or sheltered by the discretion of a disguise, lest the infinite provocation, the discreet delicacy and lightness, of that is coming be destroyed by its exposure to ordinary time, by its absorption into the grossness of the order of presence."
"Even if the Messiah is there, la, in the flesh, present in ordinary time, such a presence can never amount to a coming, for coming - venue, venir, l'avenir- does not belong to the order of presence, "se venue ne correspond pas a une presence," but to a messianic order."
"So when the Messiah says "today," now he means "Now if only you heed me, or if you are willing to listen to my voice." The messianic "today" means: if you will begin, now, to respond to the call that the Messiah himself addresses to you, begin to answer the demands he places upon you, if, in order words, you are willing now to say viens as a response to the Messiah's call, . . . " "The messianic "today" means: if you are willing to respond - by your passivity and your patience - to the coming of the Messiah, for the Messiah's kingdom IS ALWAY TO COME, the very meaning of the Messiah is of a kingdom to come, of what is structurally coming, even as it makes an urgent demand upon us NOW." (Page 80)
______________________________________________________________
Footnote: Caputo received his B.A. in 1962 from La Salle University, his M.A. in 1964 from Villanova University and his Ph.D. in philosophy in 1968 from Bryn Mawr College. Caputo was the David R. Cook Professor of Philosophy at Villanova University from 1968 to 2004. Since 2004, Caputo has been the Thomas J. Watson Professor of Humanities at Syracuse University, where he teaches in both the departments of philosophy and religion. He is active in the American Philosophical Association, the American Academy of Religion, and chairs the board of editors for the Journal for Cultural and Religious Theory.
Michael Horton: Attacking Hyper-Preterism's CHEIF ARGUEMENT, TIME
Wow, what a great book. Michael Scott Horton is on target on so many issues. It is refreshing to see someone finally deal with the real issues of historical fulfillment in a way that surrounds the Preterist city and takes down their temple stone by stone. There is so much found in this book, and I would recommended it to anyone dealing with Hyper-Preterism. It nails down their chief assumption that in time changed everything. Hyper-Preterism is just another timeline driven theology that is narrow and limiting. As Horton points out, it is not a horizontal line (a pre-70ad, and post-70ad period) but a vertical line between things above and things below. There are so many greater things that appear when time is not the issue as so many Preterist claim to be true.
Michael Scott Horton; Covenant and Eschatology: The Divine Drama; 2002
"Gadamer’s general hermeneutical theory cannot account for that transformation that Christians call “conversion” a lifelong process of “putting on Christ.” THE HEARER/READER’S SITUATEDNESS IS DEFINED AS “THIS PRESENT EVIL AGE THAT IS PASSING AWAY.” THIS RELATIVIZES EVERY “PAST” “PRESENT” AND “FUTURE” AND THEREFORE COUNTERS CONSERVATIVES NOSTALGIA AS WELL AS THE NEAR FATALISTIC EMBRACE OF THE PRESENT AND THE FUTURE. IT ALSO MEANS THAT THE BELIEVING COMMUNITY TODAY IN THE US HAS MORE IN COMMON WITH THE BELIEVING COMMUNITY IN FIRST CENTURY ASIA MINOR THAN IT HAS WITH THE LATE CAPITALIST CULTURE OF LOS ANGELES AND NEW YORK. OUR IDENTITY IS PREEMINENTLY SHAPED BY THE ROLE WE PLAY IN THE DRAMA OF REDEMPTION (THE AGE TO COME AS IT HAS DAWNED IN CHRIST)" (Page 13)
Talking about the Two Age Model and the confusion of theologians he writes “ biblical eschatology disorients and reorients. It does so first by replacing the ontological and epistemological dualism with dualisms of an entirely different kind: ethical (righteousness/unrighteousness; sin/grace; justice/injustice) and historical (“this present age” and “the age that is to come”.) Thus, it locates the meaning of history in God’s purposes for creation and locates the problem of alienation in personal actions concentrated in the drive for automoy rather than in the denigrated side of the various polarities. The danger of superficial generalizations is ever present in attempts to provide contrasting typologies." (Page 28)
"When the NT writers refer, for instance, to the believers being “seated with Christ in heavenly places” in the kingdom of grace, it is never meant to convey the impression that they are not also active citizens of the kingdoms of this world. In the scheme we are advancing, one does not have to choose between the historical and the eschatological, since they are coordinated vectors. There is often an antithesis in principle (viz., “this present age” inasmuch as it is dominated by sin) but not in essence. The entithese that do exist are the result of concrete historical breaches in the divine human relationship, not the product of the structures of created reality itself. Romans 8 bears this out." (Page 29)
"Such terms as “above/heavenly” and “below/earthly are to be understood in this sense, not in Greek abstanctions. So, for instance, to set ones mind on “things above” is not to take flight from this “world of appearances” for the realm of pure spirit, but is to set ones mind on the “the things above where Christ is, seated”. (Col 3:1) “Above” and “below” like “transcendence” and “immanence,” are analogical terms, as classical theology is fully aware when it affirms divine omnipresences. . . . "(Page 29)
"It becomes clear that this two age model is concerned not with two worlds or realms, but with two ages, one inferior to the other not for any necessary or ontological reasons but for situational and ethical ones. . . . “This present age” is marked by rebellion against God’s reign, while “the age to come” is characterized by the triumph of God over sin, death, and evil. That which happens in the present is not simply for that reason (ie being located “in this age”) evil, for God’s providence or common grace is active in upholding all things and restraining evil, and God’s Spirit is creating a community of faith, hope, and love out of spiritual death. It is not “this world” of matter, transience, contingency, and so forth, that is set against “the other world” of pure spirit and apathetic bliss, but “this world age” of human rebellion, injustice, and irresponsibility in opposition to the “the age to come” in which God’s reign is uncontested, the cross is transformed fully and finally into glory, and faith and hope are exchanged for sight." (Page 32)
"The tendency to reduce eschatology to cultural-anthropological development rendered many theologians in the twentieth century reticent to identify kairos time with chronological history, but once the contrasts are seen as ethical-eschatological rather than ontological, one may be left wondering why the Kantian a prioris ought to be allowed to determine how much of Paul or the rest of the New testament is acceptable." (Page 35)
"Pauline eschatology insists that this new age actually arrives in Christ as “firstfruits,” the beginning of a full cosmic salvation." (2 Cor. 5:17) (2 Tim 1:10, Col 1:16, Rom 16:26, Gal 4:4, 2 Cor. 6:2, Eph. 3:2)
"FOR CHRIST SURELY DOES NOT COME “IN TIME”, HE COMES TO TRANSFORM TIME. THE REDUCTION OF ESCHATOLOGY TO TIME IN THE FRAMEWORK OF SALVATION HISTORY ALSO REALLY ABOLISHES ESCHATOLOGY ALTOGETHER, SUBJECTING IT TO CHRONOS, THE POWER OF TRANSIENCE." (Page 40)
"Why must once choose between either the reduction of eschatology to chronos or dispensing with chronos as the linear plane of fulfillment?" (Page 41)
"There is a time for preparation (John the Baptist), a time for deliverance (“these last days”), and a time of judgment and consummation (“the last day”). Revelation, including its doctrinal and ethical deliverances, must be seen as SUBSERVIENT to the temporal history of redemption. NOT VICE VERSA." (PAGE 41)
By recognizing Jesus Christ as the key actor in history, all things being “summed up in him” . . . (Page 112)
If all of this depends on a universal historical horizon, is such a view possible? (Page 112)
WOW, Dealing with Universalism because of a historic line. “As the assertion of divine action in history raises questions about universality and access to such salvific events for those outside the community, predicating divine speech meets with similar objections. (Page 124)
"And the biblical text is not merely a record of past and future events of redemption, but the medium of our own incorporation into that history."(Page 183)
"IN THE MODEL WE ARE PROPOSING, eschatology provides the vertical corollary for the horizontal line of history. In other words, redemptive history not only moves forward, that is, through history, but advances by being acted upon "from above" (Page 222)
"Christian theology cannot simply correlate its message to the interests of "history" apart from recognizing the presuppositions of modern historical method, according to which redemptive events or divine actions are either irrelevant or impossible. . . . "Yet, as Moltmann emphasizes, the reality of the presence of "the age to come" here and now is contradicted by our experience "in this present age." (Page 223)
"It is the penetration of history from "above" that creates the three-dimensional topography that would otherwise be flattened into a ONE-DIMENSIONAL TIME LINE." (page 223)
___________________________________________________________
FOOTNOTE: Michael Scott Horton is Professor of Theology and Apologetics at Westminster Seminary California, editor-in-chief of Modern Reformation magazine, and host of the nationally syndicated radio broadcast, The White Horse Inn. He was formerly the president of Christians United for Reformation (CURE), which later merged to become the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals (ACE). From 2001 to 2004 Horton served as the president of ACE, but is now no longer affiliated with the organization. Both Modern Reformation magazine and The White Horse Inn radio broadcast are now entities under the umbrella of White Horse Media, whose offices are located on the campus of Westminster Seminary California.
Horton received a M.A. from Westminster Seminary California, a Ph.D. from Wycliffe Hall, Oxford and Coventry University, and completed a Research Fellowship at Yale Divinity School. He was ordained a deacon in the Reformed Episcopal Church and is currently a minister in the United Reformed Churches in North America in which denomination he has served two churches in southern California.
Michael Scott Horton; Covenant and Eschatology: The Divine Drama; 2002
"Gadamer’s general hermeneutical theory cannot account for that transformation that Christians call “conversion” a lifelong process of “putting on Christ.” THE HEARER/READER’S SITUATEDNESS IS DEFINED AS “THIS PRESENT EVIL AGE THAT IS PASSING AWAY.” THIS RELATIVIZES EVERY “PAST” “PRESENT” AND “FUTURE” AND THEREFORE COUNTERS CONSERVATIVES NOSTALGIA AS WELL AS THE NEAR FATALISTIC EMBRACE OF THE PRESENT AND THE FUTURE. IT ALSO MEANS THAT THE BELIEVING COMMUNITY TODAY IN THE US HAS MORE IN COMMON WITH THE BELIEVING COMMUNITY IN FIRST CENTURY ASIA MINOR THAN IT HAS WITH THE LATE CAPITALIST CULTURE OF LOS ANGELES AND NEW YORK. OUR IDENTITY IS PREEMINENTLY SHAPED BY THE ROLE WE PLAY IN THE DRAMA OF REDEMPTION (THE AGE TO COME AS IT HAS DAWNED IN CHRIST)" (Page 13)
Talking about the Two Age Model and the confusion of theologians he writes “ biblical eschatology disorients and reorients. It does so first by replacing the ontological and epistemological dualism with dualisms of an entirely different kind: ethical (righteousness/unrighteousness; sin/grace; justice/injustice) and historical (“this present age” and “the age that is to come”.) Thus, it locates the meaning of history in God’s purposes for creation and locates the problem of alienation in personal actions concentrated in the drive for automoy rather than in the denigrated side of the various polarities. The danger of superficial generalizations is ever present in attempts to provide contrasting typologies." (Page 28)
"When the NT writers refer, for instance, to the believers being “seated with Christ in heavenly places” in the kingdom of grace, it is never meant to convey the impression that they are not also active citizens of the kingdoms of this world. In the scheme we are advancing, one does not have to choose between the historical and the eschatological, since they are coordinated vectors. There is often an antithesis in principle (viz., “this present age” inasmuch as it is dominated by sin) but not in essence. The entithese that do exist are the result of concrete historical breaches in the divine human relationship, not the product of the structures of created reality itself. Romans 8 bears this out." (Page 29)
"Such terms as “above/heavenly” and “below/earthly are to be understood in this sense, not in Greek abstanctions. So, for instance, to set ones mind on “things above” is not to take flight from this “world of appearances” for the realm of pure spirit, but is to set ones mind on the “the things above where Christ is, seated”. (Col 3:1) “Above” and “below” like “transcendence” and “immanence,” are analogical terms, as classical theology is fully aware when it affirms divine omnipresences. . . . "(Page 29)
"It becomes clear that this two age model is concerned not with two worlds or realms, but with two ages, one inferior to the other not for any necessary or ontological reasons but for situational and ethical ones. . . . “This present age” is marked by rebellion against God’s reign, while “the age to come” is characterized by the triumph of God over sin, death, and evil. That which happens in the present is not simply for that reason (ie being located “in this age”) evil, for God’s providence or common grace is active in upholding all things and restraining evil, and God’s Spirit is creating a community of faith, hope, and love out of spiritual death. It is not “this world” of matter, transience, contingency, and so forth, that is set against “the other world” of pure spirit and apathetic bliss, but “this world age” of human rebellion, injustice, and irresponsibility in opposition to the “the age to come” in which God’s reign is uncontested, the cross is transformed fully and finally into glory, and faith and hope are exchanged for sight." (Page 32)
"The tendency to reduce eschatology to cultural-anthropological development rendered many theologians in the twentieth century reticent to identify kairos time with chronological history, but once the contrasts are seen as ethical-eschatological rather than ontological, one may be left wondering why the Kantian a prioris ought to be allowed to determine how much of Paul or the rest of the New testament is acceptable." (Page 35)
"Pauline eschatology insists that this new age actually arrives in Christ as “firstfruits,” the beginning of a full cosmic salvation." (2 Cor. 5:17) (2 Tim 1:10, Col 1:16, Rom 16:26, Gal 4:4, 2 Cor. 6:2, Eph. 3:2)
"FOR CHRIST SURELY DOES NOT COME “IN TIME”, HE COMES TO TRANSFORM TIME. THE REDUCTION OF ESCHATOLOGY TO TIME IN THE FRAMEWORK OF SALVATION HISTORY ALSO REALLY ABOLISHES ESCHATOLOGY ALTOGETHER, SUBJECTING IT TO CHRONOS, THE POWER OF TRANSIENCE." (Page 40)
"Why must once choose between either the reduction of eschatology to chronos or dispensing with chronos as the linear plane of fulfillment?" (Page 41)
"There is a time for preparation (John the Baptist), a time for deliverance (“these last days”), and a time of judgment and consummation (“the last day”). Revelation, including its doctrinal and ethical deliverances, must be seen as SUBSERVIENT to the temporal history of redemption. NOT VICE VERSA." (PAGE 41)
By recognizing Jesus Christ as the key actor in history, all things being “summed up in him” . . . (Page 112)
If all of this depends on a universal historical horizon, is such a view possible? (Page 112)
WOW, Dealing with Universalism because of a historic line. “As the assertion of divine action in history raises questions about universality and access to such salvific events for those outside the community, predicating divine speech meets with similar objections. (Page 124)
"And the biblical text is not merely a record of past and future events of redemption, but the medium of our own incorporation into that history."(Page 183)
"IN THE MODEL WE ARE PROPOSING, eschatology provides the vertical corollary for the horizontal line of history. In other words, redemptive history not only moves forward, that is, through history, but advances by being acted upon "from above" (Page 222)
"Christian theology cannot simply correlate its message to the interests of "history" apart from recognizing the presuppositions of modern historical method, according to which redemptive events or divine actions are either irrelevant or impossible. . . . "Yet, as Moltmann emphasizes, the reality of the presence of "the age to come" here and now is contradicted by our experience "in this present age." (Page 223)
"It is the penetration of history from "above" that creates the three-dimensional topography that would otherwise be flattened into a ONE-DIMENSIONAL TIME LINE." (page 223)
___________________________________________________________
FOOTNOTE: Michael Scott Horton is Professor of Theology and Apologetics at Westminster Seminary California, editor-in-chief of Modern Reformation magazine, and host of the nationally syndicated radio broadcast, The White Horse Inn. He was formerly the president of Christians United for Reformation (CURE), which later merged to become the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals (ACE). From 2001 to 2004 Horton served as the president of ACE, but is now no longer affiliated with the organization. Both Modern Reformation magazine and The White Horse Inn radio broadcast are now entities under the umbrella of White Horse Media, whose offices are located on the campus of Westminster Seminary California.
Horton received a M.A. from Westminster Seminary California, a Ph.D. from Wycliffe Hall, Oxford and Coventry University, and completed a Research Fellowship at Yale Divinity School. He was ordained a deacon in the Reformed Episcopal Church and is currently a minister in the United Reformed Churches in North America in which denomination he has served two churches in southern California.
We are no better than the futurists still hanging on to Shadows and Rituals
Donald Hochner "How can one call himself a Full Preterist, insisting that everything was fulfilled in A.D. 70, and then want to hang on to physical "signs" that were done away with by God, when that which they represented was clearly fulfilled? These were but shadows of the good things to come. They were "signs" that were related to the Old Covenant, and were preparatory to the New Covenant. When one has the reality, what does one need with the shadow? Can you imagine a futurist claiming that the Lord's supper and baptism are still going to be practiced when the Lord comes back. That man would be a laughing stock. And yet, some Preterists claim the very same thing."
"It is my considered opinion and my conviction, that the Scriptures teach that the ordinances called baptism and the Lord's supper, have been done away with, because they have accomplished their intended purpose. They were shadows of the good things to come; and as they were rooted in the OT, I believe that they were for a period of time that we Preterists often like to call "the transition period" between the taking away of the Old and the establishing of the New.
angelfire.com/ca/DeafPreterist/ceased.html
"It is my considered opinion and my conviction, that the Scriptures teach that the ordinances called baptism and the Lord's supper, have been done away with, because they have accomplished their intended purpose. They were shadows of the good things to come; and as they were rooted in the OT, I believe that they were for a period of time that we Preterists often like to call "the transition period" between the taking away of the Old and the establishing of the New.
Moreover, any futurist would know that if heaven is here now, as we Preterists claim, then the ordinances would have to go. So why do we hang on to them? Is it because we too have to cling to some tradition. We very often quote the Scriptures that say how the traditions of men make void the Word of God; but we too end up keeping traditions that seem to do the same thing.
In reality, when one thinks about it: in this respect, we are no better than the futurists who claim tradition as a defense for hanging on to the futile hope that the Lord will someday come back, when the Scriptures makes it so clear that He already has. I hope that someday we can come to an understanding about this matter, and finally all agree that we no longer need to practice rituals that have been done away with, no matter how important they were back then."angelfire.com/ca/DeafPreterist/ceased.html
Jerry Bernard: Putting off/on the body AT DEATH
"Old Testament saints slept in the grave. For, before the resurrection of Christ there was no prepared spiritual immortal body for anyone to put on at death. However, after the Parousia the soul no longer sleeps in death. Sleep was applied to all the dead that anticipated the Parousia or arrival of Christ in the first century. After A.D. 70, no one is asleep in the graves. For those who die now, put on the "house which is from heaven" at death. We are now in the Parousia and when we put off the body that came from the ground, we put on the body that comes from heaven. We have our new immortal bodies which are put on at this death and resurrection."
"I believe that after the resurrection and parousia at the close of the dispensational age in A.D. 70, everyone in Christ who dies put off the old fleshly body and put on the new spiritual body that God has prepared for them."
jerrybernard.com/index2.htm
"I believe that after the resurrection and parousia at the close of the dispensational age in A.D. 70, everyone in Christ who dies put off the old fleshly body and put on the new spiritual body that God has prepared for them."
jerrybernard.com/index2.htm
John Crandell: How can people still think Satan is still around today?
John Crandell "The devil is known today to be a defeated foe because of what Jesus Christ our Saviour has done for us at the cross almost over 2000 years ago and counting. But, people today, as you know are still thinking that Satan is around do to the tragedies that are going on in our world these days. (HAHAHA, Way to go Preterists) When I say tragedies, I mean things like illnesses or even worse yet because of the 9/11 attack that happen back in the year 2001 in New York City by the fall of the twin towers."
"you can see that they are mentioning that Satan has been destroyed along with the Old Covenantal system, which Christ has done upon our behalf at the cross. And, even better yet, God showed us that the Old Covenant has ended through His return in judgment when Titus’ Roman army destroyed Jerusalem, along with the temple, on September of A.D. 70."
(Historic Fallacy)
"How in the world can something over 2,000 plus years be near after looking in Daniel where he was told to seal the books for the time was a far off? If you add the years from Daniel all the way to Revelation, it will seem to add up between 500 to 600 years. So, how can a number that is 600 be far off and another number which is 2,000 plus more years added, as time goes by, while waiting for the return you are looking forward for, be near? It sounds totally impossible to me for something to be near when we have already gone way over 600 years, after the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, that was considered far off for Daniel. I hope that this gives you something to think about."
preterism.ning.com/forum/topic/show?id=1632544%3ATopic%3A733
"you can see that they are mentioning that Satan has been destroyed along with the Old Covenantal system, which Christ has done upon our behalf at the cross. And, even better yet, God showed us that the Old Covenant has ended through His return in judgment when Titus’ Roman army destroyed Jerusalem, along with the temple, on September of A.D. 70."
(Historic Fallacy)
"How in the world can something over 2,000 plus years be near after looking in Daniel where he was told to seal the books for the time was a far off? If you add the years from Daniel all the way to Revelation, it will seem to add up between 500 to 600 years. So, how can a number that is 600 be far off and another number which is 2,000 plus more years added, as time goes by, while waiting for the return you are looking forward for, be near? It sounds totally impossible to me for something to be near when we have already gone way over 600 years, after the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, that was considered far off for Daniel. I hope that this gives you something to think about."
preterism.ning.com/forum/topic/show?id=1632544%3ATopic%3A733
John Piper: Christ was the goal of eschatology
So close but so far away from the truth.
John Piper "When Jerusalem fell to the Romans in A. D. 70, and the Temple was burned, and the sacrifices stopped being offered in Judaism, and the Levitical priesthood came to an end, God was saying with his power and providence: Christ was the goal of it all. Christ was the Reality; the rest was shadows. Christianity is a faith woven into history. It is not a mere set of ideas. It is about a person, Jesus, who came into history and died and rose again. And it is about a God who intervenes in history to bear witness to the reality of his Son, Jesus Christ.
And look around today. Is it not astonishing that God has preserved the Jewish people to this day. And there is yet a future for them in Christ according to Scripture. But what do we see? Are they meeting at the Temple? Are they offering animal sacrifices? Do they look to the Levitical priesthood for their mediation with God? No. Why? Because Jesus said, "they did not recognize the time of their visitation" (Luke 19:44). The existence of the Jewish people today and the transformed version of Judaism that they follow is a constant witness to the world that the first covenant is vanishing away. (But that covenant of flesh did not pass away in 70AD or 30AD. The temple, animal sacrifices, priesthood, and Israel was a visible shadow pointing to the invisible things in Christ. People still live in the Old just as much as Christians live in the New. Saying the old passes or vanishes in history IS Universalism. If the old vanishes, why should men be born again. The old man is captured completely in the picture that the old covenant portrays. And that old man is not conquered until Christ takes away that which is growing old, which is our flesh). That the Messiah, Jesus Christ, has come. (AND IS TO COME. John 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. See also Rev. 1:4 Him who is and who was and who is to come. The fact is Christ does continue to come to those who love him and keep his word. Does Christ continue to come according to John 14:23? YES!!!) That he has inaugurated the new covenant. That the shadows have been replaced by Reality. And that the Spirit has written the will of God on our hearts."
preterism.ning.com/forum/topic/show?id=1632544%3ATopic%3A156
John Piper "When Jerusalem fell to the Romans in A. D. 70, and the Temple was burned, and the sacrifices stopped being offered in Judaism, and the Levitical priesthood came to an end, God was saying with his power and providence: Christ was the goal of it all. Christ was the Reality; the rest was shadows. Christianity is a faith woven into history. It is not a mere set of ideas. It is about a person, Jesus, who came into history and died and rose again. And it is about a God who intervenes in history to bear witness to the reality of his Son, Jesus Christ.
And look around today. Is it not astonishing that God has preserved the Jewish people to this day. And there is yet a future for them in Christ according to Scripture. But what do we see? Are they meeting at the Temple? Are they offering animal sacrifices? Do they look to the Levitical priesthood for their mediation with God? No. Why? Because Jesus said, "they did not recognize the time of their visitation" (Luke 19:44). The existence of the Jewish people today and the transformed version of Judaism that they follow is a constant witness to the world that the first covenant is vanishing away. (But that covenant of flesh did not pass away in 70AD or 30AD. The temple, animal sacrifices, priesthood, and Israel was a visible shadow pointing to the invisible things in Christ. People still live in the Old just as much as Christians live in the New. Saying the old passes or vanishes in history IS Universalism. If the old vanishes, why should men be born again. The old man is captured completely in the picture that the old covenant portrays. And that old man is not conquered until Christ takes away that which is growing old, which is our flesh). That the Messiah, Jesus Christ, has come. (AND IS TO COME. John 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. See also Rev. 1:4 Him who is and who was and who is to come. The fact is Christ does continue to come to those who love him and keep his word. Does Christ continue to come according to John 14:23? YES!!!) That he has inaugurated the new covenant. That the shadows have been replaced by Reality. And that the Spirit has written the will of God on our hearts."
preterism.ning.com/forum/topic/show?id=1632544%3ATopic%3A156
Larry Siegle: "Suffering" WAS FOR THAT "Present Time"
Hyperpreterist seem to cut Christianity off at its very foundation and view the bible as for them but not for us. Comments like this really get my blood boiling because this "suffering" which Larry assumes was applicable for "that generation" becomes non-applicable to us today. I don't understand how Larry can really believe this crap, especially considering the suffering he has endured in his own life. This very comment nullifies the need to be bearers of own cross. Meaning that generation bore their cross, and endured all things for the sake of Christ. That generation suffered many things for their faith, yet we are different some how because we live in a different time, a different generation, a different age. Hyperpreterist have lost touch with what the cross stands for in our lives. Dying to self is indeed the suffering of the NT, and to say it is simply a past event is delusional to say the least. If suffering ceases then perhaps we have overcome the world already. Indeed Larry believes we have already finished the race. BLAH!
Larry Siegle " To a large extent we ARE what WE SAY we are. If we THINK that "suffering for Jesus" is what we are supposed to be doing, then bless God He will just let us have what we expect to have. Remember, the "suffering" was for that "present time"--2,000 years ago. Perhaps we need to move on into living in the Victory Christ gave us and allow His Victory to be demonstrated to the world around us."
groups.yahoo.com/group/PretCosmos/message/17896
Larry, remember your own words. "Preterism is NOT the CENTRALITY of the gospel--that is a place ONLY Jesus can occupy!" You have just replaced Jesus with preterism with your comments. Only Jesus can occupy our hearts, and our love for him allows us to endure all things including sufferings for his sake.
Larry Siegle " To a large extent we ARE what WE SAY we are. If we THINK that "suffering for Jesus" is what we are supposed to be doing, then bless God He will just let us have what we expect to have. Remember, the "suffering" was for that "present time"--2,000 years ago. Perhaps we need to move on into living in the Victory Christ gave us and allow His Victory to be demonstrated to the world around us."
groups.yahoo.com/group/PretCosmos/message/17896
Larry, remember your own words. "Preterism is NOT the CENTRALITY of the gospel--that is a place ONLY Jesus can occupy!" You have just replaced Jesus with preterism with your comments. Only Jesus can occupy our hearts, and our love for him allows us to endure all things including sufferings for his sake.
Larry Siegle: BODILY transformation completed in A.D. 70
Larry Siegle "The "present tense" verbs used by the apostle Paul throughout I Cor. 15 prove beyond any doubt that the eschatological resurrection was already set into motion through the "last days" ministry of the Holy Spirit. The BODILY stance of believers then living was in the process of transformation--an action that would not be completed fully until the "end of the age" in A.D. 70. Remember Paul spoke about being changed "from glory to glory"? They were coming out of the "glory" of the Old Covenant mode of existence and being transformed "into glory" of the New Covenant mode of existence."
groups.yahoo.com/group/PretCosmos/message/17896
groups.yahoo.com/group/PretCosmos/message/17896
Don Preston: AD 70 IS NOT typological of anything future
Preston continues to show how narrow minded he really is by refusing to SEE and HEAR. Both are required to discern the things of God. How can Preston possibly believe the historical events of 70AD is WHEN God judged all men? Did God judge all men in 70AD? NOOOOOOO! The very fact Preston maintains 70AD as the final act of God's judgment shows he can only stare at the shadows, with no ability so see beyond that. Preston shows how heretical and blind he is to look intently at things seen while that which is unseen goes unnoticed. How many times did Jesus use visible things to teach us about the unseen things, the eternal things.
Don Preston "“Were the events of AD 70 typological of the real end of the age, the real coming of the Lord, the real resurrection?” I deny that this is true . . . "
"Given the fact that no Old Testament prophet ever hinted that the events of AD 70 were to be typological of greater events beyond that event, it is additionally significant that no New Testament author ever stated that the events of AD 70 were typological! Let me reiterate: No New Testament author ever stated that the events of AD 70 were typological."
"As a direct corollary to this point, no New Testament writer ever compared the fall of Jerusalem with anything beyond it. They always compared it with events that were past. For instance,
Jesus compared His coming AD 70 parousia with the days of Noah (Matthew 24:37f), not with any event beyond AD 70. Likewise, he compared the days of Lot with his coming AD 70 parousia, but not with any event beyond AD 70. Since no New Testament author ever suggests, in any way, that what was happening or about to happen was typological of yet-future events, it is unjustified to create such a doctrine."
"It is illogical, and without any scriptural merit, to suggest that Christ’s AD 70 parousia was typological of a yet-future event, while denying that all the antecedent signs and precursors of that parousia are typological as well."
"The suggestion that it (AD 70) was but a type has no scriptural or logical support, and is therefore untenable."
Don Preston "“Were the events of AD 70 typological of the real end of the age, the real coming of the Lord, the real resurrection?” I deny that this is true . . . "
"Given the fact that no Old Testament prophet ever hinted that the events of AD 70 were to be typological of greater events beyond that event, it is additionally significant that no New Testament author ever stated that the events of AD 70 were typological! Let me reiterate: No New Testament author ever stated that the events of AD 70 were typological."
"As a direct corollary to this point, no New Testament writer ever compared the fall of Jerusalem with anything beyond it. They always compared it with events that were past. For instance,
Jesus compared His coming AD 70 parousia with the days of Noah (Matthew 24:37f), not with any event beyond AD 70. Likewise, he compared the days of Lot with his coming AD 70 parousia, but not with any event beyond AD 70. Since no New Testament author ever suggests, in any way, that what was happening or about to happen was typological of yet-future events, it is unjustified to create such a doctrine."
"It is illogical, and without any scriptural merit, to suggest that Christ’s AD 70 parousia was typological of a yet-future event, while denying that all the antecedent signs and precursors of that parousia are typological as well."
"The suggestion that it (AD 70) was but a type has no scriptural or logical support, and is therefore untenable."
Ed Stevens: Last Enemy has no power after 70AD
Ed Stevens "Christ has stripped the “last enemy” (Death) of his power, taken away all the saints he held captive in Hades, and restored them to the better Paradise. (in 70AD) At physical death Christ will give us new immortal bodies and bring us into the heavenly Paradise with Him."
fulfilledmagazine.com/Volume%203%20Issue%201/Volume%203%20Issue%201.pdf
fulfilledmagazine.com/Volume%203%20Issue%201/Volume%203%20Issue%201.pdf
Ed Stevens: Hades becomes Heaven in 70AD
More Ed Steven Assumptions with NO BIBLICAL SUPPORTING TEXT. One deduction stacked on another with 70AD as its mortar.
Ed Stevens "The ultimate destiny for the saints has always been to receive immortality and dwell with God in the spiritual realm forever. When Adam sinned, it did not change his ultimate destiny of a life in heaven with an immortal body, but it did change how and when he would receive that destiny. Instead of going there directly without physical death at the end of his successful probation, he would now have to die physically and wait disembodied in Hades until the Redeemer came to accomplish atonement (AD 70) so he could finally receive his immortal body and go to live in heaven with God forever"
fulfilledmagazine.com/Volume%203%20Issue%201/Volume%203%20Issue%201.pdf
(2 Timothy 4:7-8) I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith; in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.
So I guess this answers the question, that Paul looked toward 70AD and not towards the reward he would receive upon crossing the finish line. Brilliant! Paul waited 2 years after he died to receive his crown. Here is another HYPER-PRET who makes this same dumb assertion.
Charles Julius Guiteau. The Truth; a Companion to the Bible. 1879.
"Yes, yes, thou Paul, waited only two years for thy "crown." Thou wert executed AD 68, and thy Master came at the destruction of Jerusalem, AD70, and gavest thee thy "crown" (Guiteau, p. 30)
Ed Stevens "The ultimate destiny for the saints has always been to receive immortality and dwell with God in the spiritual realm forever. When Adam sinned, it did not change his ultimate destiny of a life in heaven with an immortal body, but it did change how and when he would receive that destiny. Instead of going there directly without physical death at the end of his successful probation, he would now have to die physically and wait disembodied in Hades until the Redeemer came to accomplish atonement (AD 70) so he could finally receive his immortal body and go to live in heaven with God forever"
fulfilledmagazine.com/Volume%203%20Issue%201/Volume%203%20Issue%201.pdf
(2 Timothy 4:7-8) I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith; in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.
So I guess this answers the question, that Paul looked toward 70AD and not towards the reward he would receive upon crossing the finish line. Brilliant! Paul waited 2 years after he died to receive his crown. Here is another HYPER-PRET who makes this same dumb assertion.
Charles Julius Guiteau. The Truth; a Companion to the Bible. 1879.
"Yes, yes, thou Paul, waited only two years for thy "crown." Thou wert executed AD 68, and thy Master came at the destruction of Jerusalem, AD70, and gavest thee thy "crown" (Guiteau, p. 30)
Preterism is NOT the CENTRALITY of the gospel
It's funny that Larry Siegle has to remind Preterists of the fact that Preterism is not the destination. It is not the gospel. Those who are confused enough to make it the gospel or use it as a substitute for Jesus Christ are blind. There are many who are Preterism who believe Preterism to be gospel. You are certainly tell who those people are by the fruit they bear. That alone determines who they serve.
Larry Siegle "Preterism is NOT the CENTRALITY of the gospel--that is a place ONLY Jesus can occupy! He is the heart of eschatology. He is the reason for eschatology. HE IS the fulfillment of eschatology! When we make the "nuts-and-bolts" of preterism the CORE of the gospel we miss some of the wonderful truths that surround our eschatology and bring it all into focus."
preterism.ning.com/profiles/blog/show?id=1632544%3ABlogPost%3A5233
Larry Siegle "Preterism is NOT the CENTRALITY of the gospel--that is a place ONLY Jesus can occupy! He is the heart of eschatology. He is the reason for eschatology. HE IS the fulfillment of eschatology! When we make the "nuts-and-bolts" of preterism the CORE of the gospel we miss some of the wonderful truths that surround our eschatology and bring it all into focus."
preterism.ning.com/profiles/blog/show?id=1632544%3ABlogPost%3A5233
Hyperpreterism affects every aspect of one’s faith
Roderick Edwards " As a person who had been a hyperpreterist for over 15 years I can tell you first-hand that it is addicting & consumes every other element of one’s theology — they don’t call it a “paradigm shift” for nothing.
Hyperpreterism affects every aspect of one’s faith, including what we consider the Gospel to be. Many hyperpreterists even say that the call to be “born again” was merely a “first-century thing” — that it only spoke of the Jewish nation’s need to be born again & doesn’t apply to us today."
reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2008/03/24/is-the-hyper-preterist-gospel-a-different-gospel/
Alpheus Crosby: A New and Universal Empire
ALPHEUS CROSBY "SECOND ADVENT: OR, WHAT DO THE SCRIPTURES TEACH RESPECTING THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST, THE END OF THE WORLD, THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD, AND THE GENERAL JUDGMENT?" ; 1850
"That, as the first coming of Christ was in humiliation, to labor and suffer, so his second coming would be in glory, to establish his kingdom UPON THE EARTH, and reign with his saints : that as he came the first time as a sacrifice and as servant of all, so he would come the second time as King of kings, introducing an entirely new age, raising the dead, changing the living, taking account of all past actions, rewarding his friends, punishing his enemies, and establishing a new and UNIVERSAL empire of transcendent' glory."
"Deny our proposition, and you make many of their words enigmas, and much of their history a riddle. Admit it, and you have a key of wondrous power to unlock the secrets of their views and feelings, of their language and their lives."
"Whether we suppose his predictions to have had two or twenty senses, whether he spoke of two comings or two hundred, did not the comprehensive words " all these things " (or " all," according to Luke) include the whole ? Were these words mere cobwebs, that caught the minor events, but suffered the great ones to break through ? I see therefore no way of avoiding the conclusion, that our Saviour expressly and most solemnly declared, just before his death, that the generation then upon the earth would not pass away, before the grand event of his Second Coming. " Page 53
"The events, therefore, which, according to the declarations of the Saviour and the expectations of the Apostles, were to be' fulfilled before that generation should pass away, must have long since taken place. No prediction of our Saviour can have failed of its fulfilment within the predicted time ; and any expectation of its fulfilment out of this time, unless ignorantly entertained, must be a presumptuous questioning either of his knowledge or of his veracity."
"That, as the first coming of Christ was in humiliation, to labor and suffer, so his second coming would be in glory, to establish his kingdom UPON THE EARTH, and reign with his saints : that as he came the first time as a sacrifice and as servant of all, so he would come the second time as King of kings, introducing an entirely new age, raising the dead, changing the living, taking account of all past actions, rewarding his friends, punishing his enemies, and establishing a new and UNIVERSAL empire of transcendent' glory."
"Deny our proposition, and you make many of their words enigmas, and much of their history a riddle. Admit it, and you have a key of wondrous power to unlock the secrets of their views and feelings, of their language and their lives."
"Whether we suppose his predictions to have had two or twenty senses, whether he spoke of two comings or two hundred, did not the comprehensive words " all these things " (or " all," according to Luke) include the whole ? Were these words mere cobwebs, that caught the minor events, but suffered the great ones to break through ? I see therefore no way of avoiding the conclusion, that our Saviour expressly and most solemnly declared, just before his death, that the generation then upon the earth would not pass away, before the grand event of his Second Coming. " Page 53
"The events, therefore, which, according to the declarations of the Saviour and the expectations of the Apostles, were to be' fulfilled before that generation should pass away, must have long since taken place. No prediction of our Saviour can have failed of its fulfilment within the predicted time ; and any expectation of its fulfilment out of this time, unless ignorantly entertained, must be a presumptuous questioning either of his knowledge or of his veracity."
Charles Guiteau: An Assassin and Addict
Charles Julius Guiteau; The Truth; a Companion to the Bible, 1879.
"No one can understand the Bible without this view of the Second Coming, and herein is the great value of the discovery. " (Page 33)
No one can understand the Bible without thin view of the second coming. It is a living stream of water running through the New Testament. This doctrine is the missing link, uniting Primitive Christianity with modern Christianity, and, it is believed, Holy Ghost power will come to the church by a belief in this doctrine. (page 53) (HAHAHA)
"Christendom must have a new theology — a theology to fit the fact that Christ came A. D. 70. (Page 53)
Thousands have rejected the Bible, to their eternal death, on account of its apparent inconsistency, not knowing the truth concerning Christ's second coming. (page 53)
A correct knowledge of Christ's second coining is almost as important as a knowledge of his first coming. (page 54)
There were two classes in the Primitive Church — those that expected Christ's coming and those that did not. An individual's belief or disbelief in His coming decided his final destiny. He appeared at the siege of Jerusalem " with His mighty angels," to those who were looking for Him, and took them to glory. To those who looked not for Him He came not. They were left on earth, and their seed has represented Christianity all these ages. They were the unfaithful servants of whom Christ so often spake. (Page 60) (I can only assume Guiteau was of one who came from these seeds of unbelief who were left on earth after 70AD. LOL)
The very curse Paul says (II Thess. ii. 11) should come upon the church, has been upon it since Christ came, A. D. 70. " And for this curse," says Paul (thereby meaning the unbelief of the Antichrist part of the Primitive Church, concerning Christ's coming, then close at hand), " God shall send them" (meaning the Antichrist part of the Primitive Church, and which Christianity since has represented), "strong delusion," that they should "believes lie"; and Christendom, for eighteen centuries, has not known the truth touching Christ's second coming. The reason they have not known it, is because it was the Antichrist part of the Primitive Church which Christ left on earth when he judged the race at the siege of Jerusalem. It is this apostate Christianity that has assumed to represent Christ all these ages. As they forsook the coming of the Lord, so has the church, commonly called Christian, done in all ages. The Christianity of Paul's church was wonderfully different in spirituality and Hol (pages 61-62)
As the entire human race (i. e., the dead part of it), prior to the destruction of Jerusalem, A. D. 70, were detained in Hades, awaiting their resurrection and judgment, so the inhabitants of this earth, since A. D. 70, have been detained in Hades awaiting their resurrection and judgment, which will take place at the end of the world. Paul (he was executed A. D. 68) only waited two years in the Paradise of Hades after his death for his "crown," i. e., till Christ came, A. D. 70. Abraham,* however, was * In Luke 16: 19-31, wo, are told that a rich man interviewed Abraham, and thereby learn that Hades is composed of two wards, — the one for the righteous ; the other for the wicked. Abraham was in the righteous ward, »'. e., in the Paradise of Hades ; and the rich man in the wicked ward, i. e., in Hell. " And the rich man lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw father Abraham afar off," (page 81)
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Footnote "Guiteau's book "The Truth; a Companion to the Bible" was almost entirely plagiarized from the work of John Humphrey Noyes." "Charles Julius Guiteau was an American lawyer who assassinated U.S. President James A. Garfield on July 2, 1881. He was executed by hanging." "Guiteau then decided that God had commanded him to kill the ungrateful President."
"No one can understand the Bible without this view of the Second Coming, and herein is the great value of the discovery. " (Page 33)
No one can understand the Bible without thin view of the second coming. It is a living stream of water running through the New Testament. This doctrine is the missing link, uniting Primitive Christianity with modern Christianity, and, it is believed, Holy Ghost power will come to the church by a belief in this doctrine. (page 53) (HAHAHA)
"Christendom must have a new theology — a theology to fit the fact that Christ came A. D. 70. (Page 53)
Thousands have rejected the Bible, to their eternal death, on account of its apparent inconsistency, not knowing the truth concerning Christ's second coming. (page 53)
A correct knowledge of Christ's second coining is almost as important as a knowledge of his first coming. (page 54)
There were two classes in the Primitive Church — those that expected Christ's coming and those that did not. An individual's belief or disbelief in His coming decided his final destiny. He appeared at the siege of Jerusalem " with His mighty angels," to those who were looking for Him, and took them to glory. To those who looked not for Him He came not. They were left on earth, and their seed has represented Christianity all these ages. They were the unfaithful servants of whom Christ so often spake. (Page 60) (I can only assume Guiteau was of one who came from these seeds of unbelief who were left on earth after 70AD. LOL)
The very curse Paul says (II Thess. ii. 11) should come upon the church, has been upon it since Christ came, A. D. 70. " And for this curse," says Paul (thereby meaning the unbelief of the Antichrist part of the Primitive Church, concerning Christ's coming, then close at hand), " God shall send them" (meaning the Antichrist part of the Primitive Church, and which Christianity since has represented), "strong delusion," that they should "believes lie"; and Christendom, for eighteen centuries, has not known the truth touching Christ's second coming. The reason they have not known it, is because it was the Antichrist part of the Primitive Church which Christ left on earth when he judged the race at the siege of Jerusalem. It is this apostate Christianity that has assumed to represent Christ all these ages. As they forsook the coming of the Lord, so has the church, commonly called Christian, done in all ages. The Christianity of Paul's church was wonderfully different in spirituality and Hol (pages 61-62)
As the entire human race (i. e., the dead part of it), prior to the destruction of Jerusalem, A. D. 70, were detained in Hades, awaiting their resurrection and judgment, so the inhabitants of this earth, since A. D. 70, have been detained in Hades awaiting their resurrection and judgment, which will take place at the end of the world. Paul (he was executed A. D. 68) only waited two years in the Paradise of Hades after his death for his "crown," i. e., till Christ came, A. D. 70. Abraham,* however, was * In Luke 16: 19-31, wo, are told that a rich man interviewed Abraham, and thereby learn that Hades is composed of two wards, — the one for the righteous ; the other for the wicked. Abraham was in the righteous ward, »'. e., in the Paradise of Hades ; and the rich man in the wicked ward, i. e., in Hell. " And the rich man lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw father Abraham afar off," (page 81)
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Footnote "Guiteau's book "The Truth; a Companion to the Bible" was almost entirely plagiarized from the work of John Humphrey Noyes." "Charles Julius Guiteau was an American lawyer who assassinated U.S. President James A. Garfield on July 2, 1881. He was executed by hanging." "Guiteau then decided that God had commanded him to kill the ungrateful President."
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